Drunkenness, Reading Dirty Magazines, Etc.

[Dave]

I have a Catholic friend who believes that nothing is really wrong with getting drunk unless it controls your life. That's how he interprets passages in the catechism and the Bible condemning drunkenness. How does one respond to that and show that such passages condemn not only that but even individual instances of drunkenness, no matter how infrequent?

This same friend of mine subscribes to Maxim Magazine, which is essentially like Playboy except that the things that Playboy exposes, Maxim keeps covered, if you know what I mean. I told him that such magazines are a near occasion of sin, but he takes the attitude that if we avoid everything that could be an occasion of sin, we might as well live in a cave (never mind the fact that the purpose of such magazines is to incite lust in guys, whether or not any given individual actually does commit lust after looking at a particular issue on a given occasion). He has said that sometimes he commits lust when looking at those magazines (and he acknowledges that lust is wrong), but sometimes he doesn't. How to respond?

[Lil Red]

moved for an answer

[thessalonian]

My cure all answer for all sexual sin is theology of the body.

www.christopherwest.com

If he COULD look at such magazines with no sin he is better than 99.9% of the men on the earth. Further he is participating in the sin of others whose daughters are being used to feed the lusts of men, enslaving them in lust, even if he weren't lusting after them himself. He needs to understand that our sexuality needs to be redeemed and indulging in it is not the path to take in accomplishing this. Neither is repression of course. Both have their pitfalls. He needs to understand that the opposite of love is not hate. Love is to have the best interests of the other in mind. The opposite of love is to desire to use others for your own pleasure. That is what he is doing in participating in the pornography industry. Very sad.

God bless

[suuran]

I'd appeal to any of chivalry he might have...has it occured to him that some model had to pose for these pictures, and that he's slavering over a real, living person? Doesn't that sort of thing lead him to think of real humans with souls as meat existing for his pleasure? That's phrased pretty strongly, so I wouldn't recommend that exact wording, but that's the general tact I'd take. If he's Catholic, he definitely believes that humans have dignity. Lust deteriorates one's respect for human dignity--all across the board, really, since it devalues the family and children as well.

And...well...if he acknowledges that "he lusts sometimes" and that lust is wrong, isn't that enough? What does it matter if he doesn't do so sometimes? Isn't his goal in looking at Maxim to inspire lust?

As for drunkeness...drunkenness is a grave sin if you drink to the point where you lose control of your actions. You could fornicate, murder, steal, Lord knows what when you get that drunk, and drinking to the point of demolishing all your moral inhibitions is itself a sin for that reason. By getting drunk, you voluntarily abandon will and conscience, which allow us to make moral decisions.

[Era Might]

Dave, check out the book "Forty Dreams of St. John Bosco". He dealt with youth and had a lot of dreams that revealed a lot of spiritual things like purity and piety, and often had to warn the boys that he had seen them in hell in a dream because they were living dangerous lives.

[quote]As I looked again, another boy came hurtling down into the cave at breakneck speed. He too was from the Oratory. As he fell, so he remained. He too emitted one single heart-rending shriek that blended with the last echo of the scream that came from the youth who had preceded him. Other boys kept hurtling in the same way in increasing numbers, all screaming the same way and then all becoming equally motionless and incandescent. I noticed that the first seemed frozen to the spot, one hand and one foot raised into the air; the second boy seemed bent almost double to the floor. Others stood or hung in various other positions, balancing themselves on one foot or hand, sitting or lying on their backs or on their sides, standing or kneeling, hands clutching their hair. Briefly, the scene resembled a large statuary group of youngsters cast into ever more painful postures. Other lads hurtled into that same furnace. Some I knew; others were strangers to me. I then recalled what is written in the Bible to the effect that as one falls into Hell, so he shall forever remain. ". . . in what place soever it shall fall, there shall it be." (Ecclesiastes 11:3)

More frightened than ever, I asked my guide, "When these boys come dashing into this cave, don't they know where they are going?"

"They surely do. They have been warned a thousand times, but they still choose to rush into the fire because they do not detest sin and are loath to forsake it. Furthermore, they despise and reject God's incessant, merciful invitations to do penance. Thus provoked, Divine Justice harries them, hounds them, and goads them on so that they cannot halt until they reach this place."

"Oh, how miserable these unfortunate boys must feel in knowing they no longer have any hope," I exclaimed. "If you really want to know their innermost frenzy and fury, go a little closer," my guide remarked.

I took a few steps forward and saw that many of those poor wretches were savagely striking at each other like mad dogs. Others were clawing their own faces and hands, tearing their own flesh and spitefully throwing it about. Just then the entire ceiling of the cave became as transparent as crystal and revealed a patch of Heaven and their radiant companions safe for all eternity. [/quote]

[jswranch]

John Martignoni has useful talk on this type of issue.


[url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/2min_apologetics.mp3"]Check out this talk. Use track #5[/url]

He discusses the issue of Catholics ripping paragraphs out of the CCC, which makes themselves their own little pope.

[beatty07]

These are two issues that most Catholic men have to overcome, just because of the culture. We're soaked in these ideas so completely that it takes a lot to see things correctly. So you'll need a lot of patience - your friend may be of good will, but you're working against a very deep cultural indoctrination.

Regarding the magazine... does he have a sister? This is a good tact. How would he feel if he found a picture of his sister, similarly clad and posed, under your bed? If he's honest about his reaction, that might give him some insight that something's very wrong.

Drunkenness can be approached from so many angles...some good ones are already listed above. One way to look at it is as a rejection of God's gift of life. Our existence is God's first and greatest gift (next to our redemption), and anything that destroys sobriety is an implicit rejection of it. Drunkenness might be pursued mainly "just for fun", but there's also an escapism there. Sometimes, of course, escapism is the conscious purpose of the drinker.

Showing some moderation might increase your cred. For instance, my opinion is that the Scriptural passages allow drinking that noticeably affects one's mood... wine "makes glad men's hearts." So you could stress that the problem begins when he is giving up his freedom and conscience, not just in having a "buzz." (I guess that depends on how he defines buzz!)

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Sounds like juggling knives.

[beatty07]

by "juggling knives" are you referring to that bit I wrote about "making merry men's hearts" vs. drunkenness? Cuz now that you mention it, that probably isn't good advice for someone with a drinking problem! Too easy to rationalize yourself into a stupor.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I was referring to reading dirty magazines while trying not to commit lust. Seems like a dangerous thing to do.

[beatty07]

oh. I disagree then. Juggling knives is WAY smarter than that.

[suuran]

Juggling knives ain't [i]too[/i] hard, if they're well balanced .

[Lounge Daddy]

I'll read this again tonight - after I wake up – and maybe comment further...
(I work the night shift, and sleep afternoons)

But on first read... my comments are:
Drinking is one thing, I'm an alcoholic - some can drink at times and enjoy it... I can't drink at all EVER. NEVER. That's me. I have a disease, not everyone does.

* But porn... I believe it's a sick evil sinister thing that sinks it’s teeth in everyone.
There is a huge difference between freedom and license… and Maxim and other so-called “men’s” mags use license to the fullest to make money.

It’s pornography in my book, and it’s a sin.

I do believe that St. Augustine (I think it is Saint Augustine) has said that pornography dulls the intellect. And I think that many of us can sight this truth with our own eyes and ears.
Porn makes people dum, spiritually and intellectually.

[Dave]

Thanks for your input, everyone.

However, I think you all have overlooked one question I have ... How does one respond to the claim that drunkenness in the Bible and Catechism refer even to individual instances of getting drunk, no matter how infrequent, and not just allowing alcohol to control your life?

Oh yeah ... no, beatty07, he doesn't have any sisters.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Dave

[beatty07]

[quote name='Dave' post='1110958' date='Nov 4 2006, 02:18 PM']
However, I think you all have overlooked one question I have ... How does one respond to the claim that drunkenness in the Bible and Catechism refer even to individual instances of getting drunk, no matter how infrequent, and not just allowing alcohol to control your life?
[/quote]

Well, there's always the example of Noah. He definitely doesn't seem to be the town drunk... but he drank too much on one occasion that we know of, and it resulted in great shame upon his house. Genesis 9:20-25. It probably won't change his mind, but it seems like the Bible often gives moral lessons this way.