Auto Da Fe In The Spanish Inquisition

[Winchester]

Budge,

I'm reading the article, and I find it quite erudite and painstakingly edited.

[quote]Charles’s rule in Spain was not a very good.[/quote]

Not a very good... It makes one wonder, truly ponder the not a very good that Charles's (the use of the 's is actually correct.) was.

[quote]The Spanish economy suffered, along with societal conditions. Intellectual life also suffered as a result. [/quote]

Sheer poetry! How the language flows from one idea to the next. The logic is striking.

[quote]This particular auto da fe happened on Sunday June 30th, which was a regular holy day in the catholic church. As such, mass is being celebrated as normal.
[/quote]

As opposed to the abnormal rites at an auto da fe. The phrase "as such" always imparts an air of intelligence to any piece. Here it adorns the paragraph like a hair fall on a classy actress.

[quote]The poor souls undergoing trial on this day are visible in the very center of the painting, inside the fenced area.[/quote]

Here I must admit some confusion. Is this an auto da fe or a trial?

[quote]There are soldiers at the bottom of the painting, and people all around watching the trials. The soldiers are probably there to aid in the carrying out of sentences.

[/quote]

Ah yes, the ever exact "probably!" After all, there were no scrupulous records kept of actual trials through which we could determine the reason for the soldiers in this photograph...sorry, painting from a hundred or so years after.

[quote]The two black altars at the top of the stairs are for the king and the inquisitor general. These can be seen at the top if the stairs on the left, with the king standing behind one and the inquisitor general behind the other.

[/quote]

An unusual but no doubt proper use of "if." It is intended to indicate an certain probability, echoing a previous sentence with a delicious sort of alliteration of idea.

[quote]A black and white image of an auto da fe very similar to the one in Madrid. Note the similarities between the two.

[/quote]

It is obviously earlier because color painting had not been invented.

[quote]Another picture of an Auto da Fe.[/quote]

An excellent closing statement! Note how we assert the "pictureness" of the picture, thus sealing the damning evidence of drawings of people gathered. Surely we have here telling proofs of the hideous trial/not trial/soldier gathering/wedding auto da fe!

[Socrates]

I was thinking of getting out my Dr. Carroll myself when I saw this topic, but looks like you got to it first and spared me the work.

Dr. Carroll is the Man when it comes to the facts on historical issues regarding the Catholic Faith.

For more on this topic, check out his [url="http://www.amazon.com/Isabel-Spain-Warren-H-Carroll/dp/0931888433/sr=1-1/qid=1162081964/ref=sr_1_1/002-9205297-9214448?ie=UTF8&s=books"][i]Isabel Of Spain: Catholic Queen[/i].[/url]

(Dr. Carroll's love of Queen Isabel was so big, it became a joke in the classroom - "Does his wife know about this?" )

Btw, Era, are Dr. Carroll's works availbale online anywhere, or did you handcopy that text?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1103293' date='Oct 28 2006, 01:53 PM']
For example, John Calvin burned Michael Servetus at the stake in 1553. The charge was heresy.[/quote]

Wait a second. Are you telling me that Catholics were not the only ones burning people at the stake for heresy? THAT PROTESTANTS DID TOO????

Oh, how am I ever going to get over another childhood fairy tale being stolen from me - first Santa Claus, now this?


BTW, a belated welcome back.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Norseman82

[XIX]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1103235' date='Oct 28 2006, 11:49 AM']
Oh, and Inquisitors seemed to be human and the Vatican hadn't perfected its mind control ray, yet, so some did disobey after being brainwashed by Opus Dei.
[/quote]
Oops Dei

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1103565' date='Oct 28 2006, 08:37 PM']
(Dr. Carroll's love of Queen Isabel was so big, it became a joke in the classroom - "Does his wife know about this?" )

[/quote]

Dr. Carroll is not the only convert-historian to succumb to Queen Isabella's charms. Dr. Elizabeth Long of California wrote a history of the Catholic Queen, Isabella, and became a Catholic herself as a result of her research. I met her at a Path to Rome conference in New Orleans (long before Katrina). First, she told us about the wonderful attributes of Isabella; then she professed her faith in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and was baptized with her entire audience as witnesses.

Praise Him!
----------------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

----------------------------------------------
Quote:
BTW, a belated welcome back.

Thanks, Norseman! It's good to be here!

Edited October 29, 2006 by Katholikos

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1103565' date='Oct 28 2006, 08:37 PM']Btw, Era, are Dr. Carroll's works availbale online anywhere, or did you handcopy that text?[/quote]
I handcopied it, but I did it a long time ago, I just did a search to find the text from the first time I posted it.

[Budge]

Dr. Carroll was the one having the pro-inquisition discussion on EWTN.

I found some historical proof of an auto-da fe and Inquisition on line...

I can read some Spanish, doesnt look that good.

[img]http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/exhibits/inquisition/images/53/53_title.jpg[/img]

This is interesting to me, I didnt realize the medieval inquisition did tests of racial PURITY...{kind of adds heft to my theory that the Holocaust of Hitler was simply an updated Inquisition}


[quote]
The collection contains 25 certificates conferring the title of "familiar of the Inquisition" to individual Spaniards. These certificates, largely manuscripts from the 16th and 17th centuries, conferred all privileges and responsibilities unto [b]Spaniards found to be [u]racially[/u] and religiously pure according to the precepts of the Inquisition[/b]. Familiars, who would be referred to as Friends of the Inquisition today, were known for their racial purity, their support of the Church and their advocacy of the Inquisition.[/quote]

[url="http://historymedren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=historymedren&cdn=education&tm=33&gps=112_11_1020_502&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.rarebooks.nd.edu/exhibits/inquisition/"]RACIAL PURITY IN THE INQUISITION[/url]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

"Auto da fé? What’s an auto da fé? It’s what ya oughtn’t to do, but ya do anyway..." -History of the World, Part I (don't watch it...not a clean movie...I remember it from my heathen days...but if you fast forward through some scenes, it's hilarious).

[Winchester]

Budge.

No one is saying Autos da fe di not exist, nor are they saying the Inquisition was perfect or did not exist.


Are you only going to discuss the Spanish Inquisition?

Considering that racial purity has never been an objective of any of our doctrines, I would consider the use of the authority of the Church (if this indeed happened) to be abhorrent.

Your point is?

[quote]This is interesting to me, I didnt realize the medieval inquisition did tests of racial PURITY...{kind of adds heft to my theory that the Holocaust of Hitler was simply an updated Inquisition}[/quote]
Now I'm a bit confused. I thought you were talking about the Spanish Inquisition, which is separate and distinct from the Medieval inquisition.

[Justified Saint]

Budge,

[i]Limpieza[/i] was rarely enforced and it was limited to certain reigions -- the principle was often strongly opposed by popes. Conversos continued to be found in the highest ranks of society.

Better go back to the drawing boards Budge, you aren't fooling anyone here. What's next on the list, Goya?

[ruso]

[quote name='Budge' post='1104945' date='Oct 30 2006, 05:17 PM']
Dr. Carroll was the one having the pro-inquisition discussion on EWTN.

I found some historical proof of an auto-da fe and Inquisition on line...

I can read some Spanish, doesnt look that good.

[img]http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/exhibits/inquisition/images/53/53_title.jpg[/img]

This is interesting to me, I didnt realize the medieval inquisition did tests of racial PURITY...{kind of adds heft to my theory that the Holocaust of Hitler was simply an updated Inquisition}
[url="http://historymedren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=historymedren&cdn=education&tm=33&gps=112_11_1020_502&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.rarebooks.nd.edu/exhibits/inquisition/"]RACIAL PURITY IN THE INQUISITION[/url]
[/quote]
The document this is Portuguese no in Spanish. Coimbra this in Portugal.
And yes, the society Spanish was racist in the XVI century, and England, Holland, Germany, Italy, Russian, Morocco, Chinese.......................

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1104945' date='Oct 30 2006, 11:17 AM']
Dr. Carroll was the one having the pro-inquisition discussion on EWTN.

I found some historical proof of an auto-da fe and Inquisition on line...

I can read some Spanish, doesnt look that good.

[img]http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/exhibits/inquisition/images/53/53_title.jpg[/img]

This is interesting to me, I didnt realize the medieval inquisition did tests of racial PURITY...{kind of adds heft to my theory that the Holocaust of Hitler was simply an updated Inquisition}
[url="http://historymedren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=historymedren&cdn=education&tm=33&gps=112_11_1020_502&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.rarebooks.nd.edu/exhibits/inquisition/"]RACIAL PURITY IN THE INQUISITION[/url]
[/quote]
Since you can read Spanish, why don't you quote something where the actual document talks about "racial purity." I really don't know what that text is talking about, but it looks poorly and anachronistically worded. "Racial purity" was a 19th-20th century ideology, and the concept did not really exist in 15th century Spain. (And would not have really made sense, Spain being made up a number of various ethnic/racial groups)
The issue it is probably referring to is religious, rather than racial, in nature, concerning that of "false conversos."

In the eighth century, Muslim invaders took over all of Christian Spain, and Christians were forced to convert to Islam, be killed, or live as slaves under the Muslim conquerors. A Christian resistance formed, and was able to win back a small part of Spain. For over 700 years of hard fighting against the Muslim occupiers, the Christian Spaniards gradually reconquered Spain from the Muslim oppressors. This is own as La Reconquista. It was only completed in the late 1400s, when the island of Granada was won back from the Moors, and Spain became a totally Christian country for the first time in many centuries.

Much of the Spanish Inquisition focused on the issue of the false conversos, Muslims who pretended to be Christian, but had in fact remained Muslim. Muslims had long been the enemy of Christian Spain, and those clandestine Muslims could work from within to undermine the Christian state in Spain (much like communist spies in more recent times.)
And it should be noted that the Inquisition existed as much to protect people from false accusations as to convict the guilty. (A person had to actually be proven guilty by court of law, rather than simply be condemned by a hostile mob.) The vast majority of those charged with being false conversos were found innocent and released. (One had to make a confession of faith, and he was released - only if he later broke this oath, was he punished).
The issue here was religious, not racial.

I find it ironic, Budge, that you keep trying to use the Spanish Inquisition, which was formed to deal with a Muslim enemy, to try to bash the Church, when elsewhere you have repeatedly condemned the Church as evil for being too warm and cozy with Muslims!

So which is it Budge, is the Church evil for being too harsh on those poor Muslims, or for being too nice and friendly with them??!!

Oh, well. Consistancy was never your strong point.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Socrates

[Katholikos]

[b]Budge wrote:[/b]
[quote]This is interesting to me, I didnt realize the medieval inquisition did tests of racial PURITY...{kind of adds heft to my theory that the Holocaust of Hitler was simply an updated Inquisition}[/quote]Wrong, Budge. Hitler's hero was Martin Luther, "Father of Protestantism," whose treatise entitled "The Jews and Their Lies" gave the Nazi's justification for their treatment of Jews. Six million Jews died in the Holocaust.


[url="http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm"]http://www.humanitas-international.org/sho...luther-jews.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.html"]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuthe...alAncestor.html[/url]

------------------------------------------------
Blessed Father Damien, pray for us!

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1105686' date='Oct 30 2006, 09:54 PM']
Since you can read Spanish, why don't you quote something where the actual document talks about "racial purity." I really don't know what that text is talking about, but it looks poorly and anochronistically worded. "Racial purity" was a 19th-20th century ideology, and the concept did not really exist in 15th century Spain. (And would not have really made sense, Spain being made up a number of various ethnic/racial groups)
The issue it is probably referring to is religious, rather than racial, in nature, concerning that of "false conversos."

In the eighth century, Muslim invaders took over all of Christian Spain, and Christians were forced to convert to Islam, be killed, or live as slaves under the Muslim conquerors. A Christian resistance formed, and was able to win back a small part of Spain. For over 700 years of hard fighting against the Muslim occupiers, the Christian Spaniards gradually reconquered Spain from the Muslim oppressors. This is own as La Reconquista. It was only completed in the late 1400s, when the island of Granada was won back from the Moors, and Spain became a totally Christian country for the first time in many centuries.

Much of the Spanish Inquisition focused on the issue of the false conversos, Muslims who pretended to be Christian, but had in fact remained Muslim. Muslims had long been the enemy of Christian Spain, and those clandestine Muslims could work from within to undermine the Christian state in Spain (much like communist spies in more recent times.)
And it should be noted that the Inquisition existed as much to protect people from false accusations as to convict the guilty. (A person had to actually be proven guilty by court of law, rather than simply be condemned by a hostile mob.) The vast majority of those charged with being false conversos were found innocent and released. (One had to make a confession of faith, and he was released - only if he later broke this oath, was he punished).
The issue here was religious, not racial.

I find it ironic, Budge, that you are trying to use the Spanish Inquisition, which was formed to deal with a Muslim enemy, to try to bash the Church, when elsewhere you have repeatedly condemned the Church as evil for being too warm and cozy with Muslims!

So which is it Budge, is the Church evil for being too harsh on those poor Muslims, or for being too nice and friendly with them??!!

Oh, well. Constistancy was never your strong point.
[/quote]


Socrates, your brief history of the Muslim conquest of Visigothic Spain and the reconquista isn't very accurate. First of all, the Muslims who conquered Spain didn't kill and enslave everyone who didn't convert. They did have rules governing dhimmi status amongst non-Muslims in Spain, but that wasn't the same thing as enslavement. Dhimmi status was a series of restrictions placed on those "people of the book" who were not Muslims but who were living in the Dar al-Islam - the abode of Islam. These restrictions varied both by region and by time period. However, they generally required Christian churches not to have bells or ring them, and for Christians to not carry weapons. Sometimes they required that Christians and Jews wear clothing that differentiated them from Muslims, but this was more rare. It's also important to note that while the notion of the medieval Iberian convivencia is not entirely accurate, there was a great deal of tolerance and trade between Christians and Muslims. Even the relationship between Christian and Muslim kingdoms was not always adversarial. Sometimes Christian kingdoms would ally with Muslims against other Christian kingdoms. Sometimes a Christian kingdom that was capable of conquering a Muslim kingdom wouldn't do it, and would instead demand payments of tribute annually. In fact, this latter became an established system in the 13th and 14th centuries. Also, it's important to note that the Christians also enforced their own restrictions on Muslims, just as the Muslims had on the Christians. They required them to not use loud calls to prayer, to not carry weapons, and sometimes to wear special clothing that set them apart. By and large however, these ordinances were fairly lenient on both sides of things. I'd like to add, Granada is not an island, it was simply the last pocket of Muslim resistance in Spain (the Nasrid sultanate) and was as such an Island of Islam surrounded by Christianity.

Interestingly, you're also wrong on the converso issue. There was some worry during the reconquista of Muslims falsely converting and being spies, but what is striking about the Spanish Inquisition, especially in its early stages, is that it is far more concerned with Jews that it is with the moriscos. They were worried that Jews were falsely converting to Christianity and then reverting to Judaism. That's why the Jews were expelled in 1492 and the Moors were not expelled until 1609. So, it's clear that for most of the inquisition, the Spanish were worried about the threat of the Jews. In 1492, the Nasrid sultanate of Granada had been captured by the Spanish, so perhaps they considered the Muslims a defeated enemy, and that is part of the reason for their focus on Jews rather than Muslims.

[Socrates]

Bottom line: Nobody was ever burned at the stake for not being "racially pure."