Ellenita Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I am just bringing up things that protestants talk about all the time. Hmmm, during time spent in anglican, methodist, united reform, AoG, Elim, Baptist and the charismatic house church movement not once did I ever hear a discussion about the wealth of another church......only concerns about the finances of their own particular church! Nor can I ever recall a discussion equating a church or doctrine to earthly goverment, though there were often despairing cries of why can't the government be more like 'the church'! Take care Bruce, this thread reveals your game plan to even the few who might not have realised it yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Bruce, First, the Vatican is only 109 acres. There may be corporate campuses that are bigger! Second, the existence of Vatican City as a sovereign nation allows the Pope a measure of independence from any allegiance to a particular nation so that he can teach without having to worry about how Italy will react. So, instead of a hindrance, it can be a plus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickRitaMichael Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Norseman, I agree. Also, I think that it is appropriate for the head of the Church (Vatican) to be beautiful and ornate -- things whose purpose is to worship God are allowed to be beautiful. I mean, weren't the Israelites carting around tons of gold and expensive cloth just to set up the Temple? They could have used the money for other good purposes but you have to reserve some for God, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Bruce....where are you? You've been uncharacteristically quiet for a few days.....is everything alright.... ....or is the weight of all the argument at Phatmass just too much to bear?! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 bruce was suspended untl some time next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Don John, thanks! I knew I shouldn't have posted my post.... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 See, we believe that when the Bishops and Pope are gathered together to declare any official teaching of the Church, then they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit cannot be wrong.... just as we can read in the Bible... Where is the basis for this? Perhaps we need to focus more on "being filled with the Holy Spirit" and "walking in the Spirit" and less on ritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Where is the basis for this? Perhaps we need to focus more on "being filled with the Holy Spirit" and "walking in the Spirit" and less on ritual. Why is it that so many people who claim to be following the direction of the Holy Spirit are in contradiction? Does the Spirit lead whatever direction peeps wanna go? Seems that way in certain circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 in contradiction to what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 (edited) Well, let's see...for starters, in contradiction in interpretting the Scriptures, for instance. How do you know, when protestant denomination A teaches one thing, protestant denomination B teaches something different, and protestant denomination C through Z all are in disagreement over one interpretation or another also, which denominationis being led by the Holy Spirit? The one you agree with the most? Is one of them right all of the time? Or, are all of them right some of the time? Pax Christi. <>< Edited January 18, 2004 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 that's a very good point anna, one i am often perplexed by as well. in reply, many protestants will say, "well, its ok if we disagree over minor points, as long as we agree on the major ones." my response to that is, "what's a minor point? and who are you to decide what a minor point is? does the bible say which points are minor and which points are major? what is minor to you could be major to someone else! so, i don't see that as a logical response. also, protestants disagree over major points as well. everyone here would agree that obtaining salvation is a major point, right? ok, well then how we obtain salvation is very important. BUT, protestant denomination A--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit--says you obtain salvation when u make a profession of faith. protestant denomination B--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit--says that you obtain salvation through a mixture of faith and works. protestant denomination C--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit--says that once you obtain salvation once, u are saved for life and don't need to obtain it again. protestant denomination D--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit--says that you must constantly come to the Father, that ur salvation is something u can lose. Protestant denomination E--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit--says that you must be baptized in water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Protestant denomination F--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit--says that you must be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ." Protestant denomination G--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit--says that you must be "baptized in the SPirit" and speak in tongues. so which one is it? we have 7 different ways of viewing salvation, each one claiming that they are guided by the Holy Spirit to teach their particular interpretation of the Bible. this is a major issue here. we're talking about salvation, about how we join the father in heaven! so, is the Holy Spirit contradicting itself? how can the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, contradict itself? Truth is Truth. There is one Truth. One Lord. One Faith. One Baptism. how do protestants reconcile this contradicting Spirit that guides their doctrine? the floor is open..... pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 in reply, many protestants will say, "well, its ok if we disagree over minor points, as long as we agree on the major ones." my response to that is, "what's a minor point? and who are you to decide what a minor point is? does the bible say which points are minor and which points are major? what is minor to you could be major to someone else! so, i don't see that as a logical response. I run into that same exact situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 nobody has it completely right, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Typically protestants disagree that being led by the Holy Spirit will give them perfect knowledge and truth of Scriptures. I am in this boat as well. And being led by the Spirit produces fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5) and allows one to live as we are called to live. It focuses on life, and the transformation (Gal 2:20) into our new self. Ephesians 4-6 gives a detailed breakdown of the different affects on our lives when we are led by the Spirit. Unity, holiness, love, wisdom, evangelistic living for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I understand that faithful protestants strive for these things, and that is a good thing. But from a Catholic perspective, we see a great disunity, a great divide. Unity is very big with us, Holy Communion being referred to as a Sacrament of Unity, where all of those who partake are professing with their mouths that they are in agreement with all that the Church teaches, then, consuming the Sacred Host, we become united in a special way, coming together as members of the Mystical Body of Christ. We see ourselves being prompted and gifted by the Holy Spirit in various ways also, but never so powerfully as the Holy Spirit guides and protects the Church. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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