God In An Earthly Government?

[Bruce S]

Jesus didn't come to establish an earthly kingdom. When the Jews wanted to take Him and make Him a King, He quietly left. When His disciples were arguing on what role they would have in the new power structure, THEY thought He would establish, He rebuked them, in fact saying that humble servants were the inheritors and not to be earthly seekers of power.

So.

We ask.

Should there exist a complete Government with total aspects of civil government, as what Christ wanted?

Thrones, bowing and kissing men's fingers, wealth, power, defined nationhood, earthly delights....

Is the Vatican what Jesus warned everyone against? Protestants see all these trappings of power and say....no.

Honest question. Please search your hearts before posting.

Edited January 13, 2004 by Bruce S

[jasJis]

Instead of starting another thread, Bruce, can you answer some of the questions posed to you on the other threads you started please? If you have something to teach us, can you please answer our questions?

[Bruce S]

Are you capable of debating anything or any thread without YOUR OPENING MOVE an Ad Hominum attack on ME?

I'm NOT the topic of this thread. Do you have an OPINION on what the TOPIC is, or is this just going to be one of your "attack the other poster" rants?

Now...

Back to the topic at hand. Say you what??

[BLAZEr]

hmmm, it looks to me as if Bruce is afraid to answer your question Jas.

[cmotherofpirl]

Maybe if you could start a legitimate thread, just once, without the attacks, maybe we could start a conversation. Are you capable of that Bruce?

Because if you can't, then you make it obvious your purpose is just anothor cheap shot at the Church.

Edited January 13, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[jasJis]

I'm not a well educated man. I have to focus, Bruce.

I was trying to discuss with you on the Jesus - Salvation thread. I had questions, I had hoped you had answers. :rolleyes:

[Bruce S]

I am just bringing up things that Protestants talk about all the time, this IS the Interdenominal Forum, why are not the issues that really concern Protestants, in FACT LEAD TO PROTESTANISM, allowed on the floor?

I continue:

Luke

The Rich Ruler

18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'[2] "

21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

No other denomination has been consumed with wealth generation, nor accumulated wealth like the Catholic Church. I take this passage, with the other statements made by Jesus to the Apostles, to mean that this is NOT supposed to be the way His church should be organized.

Doesn't this propensity to focus on earthly power, wealth, and massive accumulated piles of valuable treasure on earth, fly in the face of those prohibitions?

I've been to the Vatican twice. It was there, HONESTLY, while standing in that vast accumulate pile of glitter, and power, and pomp, that I, for the first time, really understood the Protestant reformation. And I was a mental Catholic at that time.

[Anna]

Bruce,

You and protestants like you see things with a condemning, judgemental eye.

You see all the wealth that the Church has accumulated (not "conned people out of with promises of miracles, btw) but you don't notice how many schools, hospitals, orphanages, and helping institutions the Church has built up to aid the poor.

Indeed, perhaps the Catholic Church has acquired more wealth. She has been around much longer than the rest of your protestant denominations. But I can guarantee that she has also given away more wealth, goods, and services than any other denomination, or all of protestantism combined, for that matter.

Her MISSION is SERVICE.

And her real treasures are her faithful people.

And nobody kisses "fingers" in the Church...you just prove your ignorance when you say such things.

The act of kissing the ring of a bishop or the pope, as a sign of fidelity to his office as an embassador of Christ, is just that, a symbolic gesture. Rarely do I see it done any more, but I would kiss the ring of the bishop or pope, in a heartbeat. The Early Christians greeted one another with a Holy Kiss. There is nothing wrong with it. There's something wrong with the uptight, look-down-their-noses, judgemental, we're-saved-and-you're-not, Bible-pounding, Bible-punching, Bible-smacking, Bible-pointing, Bible-TWISTING "Christians" that think so.

Honestly. I think that protestants are green with envy over all the "trappings of power." Get over it. If we went back to celebrating the Holy Mass by candlelight in caves, you'd still be criticizing us, cuz we'd still have the Eucharist, and you don't.

So, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick away at every little thing you can to justify walking away from the Body of Christ, if it makes ya feel better.

You'll still have to answer to Him.

Pax Christi. <><

[BLAZEr]

Wait a minute. I thought this thread was about government styles. Now it's about money . . . make up your mind Bruce.

And by the way, when Christ is talking to that Rich young man, is he a leader in the Christian community? Or is he an individual Christian? It seems to me that Christ is telling Christians how to live . . . you know, give you all their money and follow him, relying on him . . . kind of like the Missionaries of Charity do . . .

Oh, but that's right . .. the Missionaries of Charity and Mother Teresa are all scheisters, you "proved" that before . ..

[mulls]

Bruce,

You and protestants like you see things with a condemning, judgemental eye.

You see all the wealth that the Church has accumulated (not "conned people out of with promises of miracles, btw) but you don't notice how many schools, hospitals, orphanages, and helping institutions the Church has built up to aid the poor.

Indeed, perhaps the Catholic Church has acquired more wealth. She has been around much longer than the rest of your protestant denominations. But I can guarantee that she has also given away more wealth, goods, and services than any other denomination, or all of protestantism combined, for that matter.

Her MISSION is SERVICE.

And her real treasures are her faithful people.

And nobody kisses "fingers" in the Church...you just prove your ignorance when you say such things.

The act of kissing the ring of a bishop or the pope, as a sign of fidelity to his office as an embassador of Christ, is just that, a symbolic gesture. Rarely do I see it done any more, but I would kiss the ring of the bishop or pope, in a heartbeat. The Early Christians greeted one another with a Holy Kiss. There is nothing wrong with it. There's something wrong with the uptight, look-down-their-noses, judgemental, we're-saved-and-you're-not, Bible-pounding, Bible-punching, Bible-smacking, Bible-pointing, Bible-TWISTING "Christians" that think so.

Honestly. I think that protestants are green with envy over all the "trappings of power." Get over it. If we went back to celebrating the Holy Mass by candlelight in caves, you'd still be criticizing us, cuz we'd still have the Eucharist, and you don't.

So, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick away at every little thing you can to justify walking away from the Body of Christ, if it makes ya feel better.

You'll still have to answer to Him.

Pax Christi. <><

There's something wrong with the uptight, look-down-their-noses, judgemental, we're-saved-and-you're-not, Bible-pounding, Bible-punching, Bible-smacking, Bible-pointing, Bible-TWISTING "Christians" that think so.

hmmm.

Honestly. I think that protestants are green with envy over all the "trappings of power."

nah.

Get over it. I

i'm over it.

if we went back to celebrating the Holy Mass by candlelight in caves, you'd still be criticizing us, cuz we'd still have the Eucharist, and you don't.

nah.

So, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick away at every little thing you can to justify walking away from the Body of Christ, if it makes ya feel better.

i'm secure, i don't need to pick.

You'll still have to answer to Him.

amen amen amen!

Pax Christi. <><

sure

[Anna]

mulls, :wub:

It didn't say "mulls," it said "Bruce."

Do you consider yourself to be a protestant like Bruce?

Do you like spending your time searching for any dirt possible on the Catholic Church, in order to justify leaving it? -_-

And yes, when Catholics were destitute and worshipping in the catacombs, they were persecuted and fed to lions. They were charged with cannabalism for eating Christ's flesh and blood. As long as we've got Him, Satan will use whatever he can: hatred, stupidity, pride, envy to try to bring down Christ's Church. Never mind that it will do no good.

[PedroX]

Bruce,

Please clarify what it is that this thread is about. Is it about earthly power, or is it about wealth accumulation? I am asking sincerely, as I have thoughts on both subjects. Please clarify your question, and I will attempt to answer.

peace...

[ironmonk]

Jesus left us a single infallible Church, to guide us in the Truth... When I say infallible, I am meaning (as the Church Teaches) that The Church cannot be wrong in matters of faith and morals. Jesus gave authority to teach the word to one organization - One Church, One Faith, One Body. See, we believe that when the Bishops and Pope are gathered together to declare any official teaching of the Church, then they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit cannot be wrong.... just as we can read in the Bible...

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (cephas), and upon this rock(cephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

The Church will never be overcome.... The Church existed in 33 AD, Today, and Tomorrow.

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John 21:15

8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

This also shows the same as with St. Matt 16:18 that Peter was the leader of the Apostles after Jesus went to Heaven. Peter was the first Pope.

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St. Matt 28:18

Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Jesus is guiding the Church. Therefore the Churches offcial teachings cannot be wrong.

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Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

Jesus cannot be wrong. Jesus sent out His Church, the Official teachings of His Church, cannot be wrong.

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Matt 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14

You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

15

Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

Jesus' Church will be like a city on a mountain that all will see, from the time of the Apostles. Only One Church has been throughout all of history. The True Church that Christ built will never go into hiding.

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Ephesians 4:1

1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,

2

with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,

3

striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:

4

2 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6

one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Every Roman Catholic Church, teaches the same thing, everywhere.... if a single Priest teaches something against what the Church says to teach, that priest is breaking a vow to God to be obedient. One Faith

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1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. To be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, then the Church must have the authority to teach the Word of God.

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Ephesians 2:20

built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.

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Acts 2:42

They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.

They devoted themselves to the "teaching" of the Apostles, not scripture. The Apostles were the foundation of the Church, Jesus was the Cornerstone that keeps the Church together.

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Jesus very clearly left us a Church with the Authority to Teach the Word. One Faith... The Pillar and Foundation of Truth, never to be overcome, and to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

....This is what we believe. Just as the Church Fathers.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you [Romans]. They were apostles, and I am a convict" (Letter to the Romans 4:3 [A.D. 110])

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1). .

Irenaeus

"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189])

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

Augustine

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

"But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church" (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

"The whole canon of the scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).

"We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).

"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

iron monk

[megamattman1]

Maybe for the first time an answer to the question. Yes, it could be that God wanted to build a kingdom here on here couldn't it?

Saying that God didn't want a kingdom because of the corruption is to Catholics like saying God doesn't exist because of general corruption to theists. Do you imagine a kingdom in the next life? If yes then why not in this life bringing heaven to earth? And ultimately why do you ask these types of questions when it clearly comes down to an opinion (yes huh, nuh uh...) and not more substanitive questions like disputing the church in history?

[ironmonk]

Thrones, bowing and kissing men's fingers, wealth, power, defined nationhood, earthly delights....

Is the Vatican what Jesus warned everyone against?

Thrones - bowing - kissing ? - No thrones, they are nice chairs... When the Pope, Bishops, Priests are speaking of the Gospel and teaching, we believe that Christ is present and that the glory of the nice chair is for Christ. Christ is the reason why these men are honored, not because of themselves.

Wealth? - No Pope, Bishop, or Priest is wealthy, they do not own much if anything. They do not will anything away when they die.

Power? - There is no power. When someone has "Power" it's to impose their own will... Popes, Bishops, and Priests do not have this kind of Power.

"Defined nationhood" - A City on a Mountain which cannot be hidden. For all to see and come to Christ... just as the Lord said. St. Matt 5:13-16

"earthly delights" - Wrong... there are some poor examples, but this is not a Church teaching... Priests are men, men make mistakes.

Is the Vatican what Jesus warned everyone against? - No, saying this shows that your study lacks depth. The Churches have God present... God deserves to be treated with awe and reverence... Many worship our Lord at the Vatican, it needs to be large, and deserving for the Pressense of the Lord.

Thank you for bringing your questions about the Catholic Church to real Catholics... We hope this will enlighten your understanding of the Truth of the reasons for what and why of the Catholic Church....

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited January 13, 2004 by ironmonk