Bruce S Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 (edited) This one has me really stumped. Honest. Help me understand how this statement is possible. "All who live a just life will be saved, even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and Roman Catholic Church." - JP II, Los Angeles Times This isn't computing with me. The part about the Catholic Church I understand, but this contradicts the seemingly clear statements that Jesus gave on salvation. Is he talking about those that lived BEFORE Jesus only here? Edited January 13, 2004 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Bruce, I believe he is speaking of "invincible ignorance," living a righteous life, while never having had the opportunity to learn about Christ. This is an understanding of the Teaching of the Church on salvation. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 Doesn't this fly totally against all the statements that without Jesus there is no salvation? I'm just stumped on this, trying to understand what they are trying to get at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Bruce do you condemn North Korean or a Chinese who has never learned about Jesus to hell and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 God reveals Himself in obvious ways, as well as subjective ways. Everything in creation reflects God's goodness and glory to a certain degree. God is ALL GOOD. No GOOD exists outside of God. People intrinsicly recognize GOOD (God), no matter where they are in life or circumstance. They have a choice to continue to seek GOOD (God) to the best of their abilities they were graced with, and according to their environment and circumstances that God chose to grace them with. The same coin has another side. They are free to reject what GOOD (God) that Grace has revealed and moved them to make a choice about. We always have a choice. God pays all His workers a full wage, whether they started that morning, or late in the afternoon. (You recognize that from Scripture). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 Bruce do you condemn North Korean or a Chinese who has never learned about Jesus to hell and why? I don't condemn anyone. Jesus did. Read HIS words on what is required for salvation. Sorry. It is not up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Jesus says that no one goes to the Father but through Him. Is it possible that he is saying "Anyone who is with the Father, got there through me, even if they didn't know me." Kinda like, wheter you realize it or not, if you got from San Antonio to El Paso you drove on I-10. Whether you recognize you were on I-10 or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I don't condemn anyone. Jesus did. Read HIS words on what is required for salvation. What do you understand those words to be? Can you, and are you willing, to provide a clear and precise answer to my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 (edited) What do you understand those words to be? Can you, and are you willing, to provide a clear and precise answer to my question? Certainly. Without a personal knowlege OF, and confession of faith IN, Jesus, you are not going to heaven. Period. Is that clear enough for you? Apparently, Pope JPII and Mother Teresa don't agee with me. Edited January 13, 2004 by Bruce S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I don't condemn anyone. Sorry. It is not up to me. You and many like you act as though it were. -_- If Jesus can do all things, then He can save a man who, through no fault of his own, never had the opportunity to learn of His saving message, yet lived righteously. If you cannot believe this, then you believe that we are saved by our works. For it is work to believe! Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 If Jesus can do all things, then He can save a man who, through no fault of his own, never had the opportunity to learn of His saving message, yet lived righteously. If so... Why didn't He state that? In FACT, He stated the exact opposite. Don't impute YOUR desire into what Jesus actually said, taught, and demanded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 (edited) Bruce, Without a personal knowlege OF, and confession of faith IN, Jesus, you are not going to heaven. Period. Where is that in Scripture? References please. Edited January 13, 2004 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Jesus says that no one goes to the Father but through Him. Is it possible that he is saying "Anyone who is with the Father, got there through me, even if they didn't know me." Kinda like, wheter you realize it or not, if you got from San Antonio to El Paso you drove on I-10. Whether you recognize you were on I-10 or not. Testing . .. testing . .. is this thing on?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 If so... Why didn't He state that? In FACT, He stated the exact opposite. Don't impute YOUR desire into what Jesus actually said, taught, and demanded. Bruce. Jesus did state the FACT we can be saved even if we don't recognize Him quite clearly and specifically.The Scripture below, from Matt. 25, Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives. Please note, that the question of their acceptance of Christ as Savior is not asked. The point is moot when you understand, Grace moved these people to make a choice to do good (of God) or to walk away. In fact, Jesus teaching clearly demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Jesus is speaking this entire parable, so I've only highlighted in Red, when the King is speaking. Bruce, as you avow, you like it when Scripture is in red when Jesus is speaking because helps identify what we know what God wants us to know. Jesus speaking the Words of the King seem even doubly important. 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' [i don’t see Jesus saying we must confess He is Lord and Savior before He rewards them for doing “works” of feeding, visiting, and caring for Him, especially considering they did not recognize them as they ask Him in 38 below] 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Just to make sure that we don't misunderstand Him, Jesus repeats Himself in Matthew 10 and discusses His desire for us to do “works” of charity, and the reward He gives us for doing works. 42 And whoever gives only a cup of cold water to one of these little ones to drink because he is a disciple--amen, I say to you, he will surely not lose his reward." As Jesus points out with the Samartian, we can follow God and be a disciple when we do good in Love and Charity. We are made a disciple by the grace gift of Faith. We don't even have to understand, or know well the Giver of grace, but we do recognize good when we are faced with it. Isn't that correct, Bruce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 And not everyone who has knowledge of Christ, and professes with their mouth, "Lord, Lord!" is gonna be saved, either. Better to be a righteous pagan, I guess, than a self-righteous Christian. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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