KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Oh, we can judge the past by our own standards if we want to - it just doesn't do any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Budge, DEFINE torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) Thats the moral relativism way that the neo-cons have now trained people to ignore good and evil. Them claiming things like waterboarding are not torture is insanity. It seems with that question you are giving me the same line the ardent neo-cons gave on my message board many months ago. [quote]Oh, we can judge the past by our own standards if we want to - it just doesn't do any good.[/quote] Does God's standards change for whatever epoch youre living in? I don't think so. Using the phrase, it was that time, that place to excuse evil really is moral relativism. That is something that concerns me, I see more and more people coming up with that, as the world goes further into debauchery and evil, is the excuse for sin, going to be I live in this wicked world, I have to be like it? [quote] Right well, I certainly respect your anti-torture stance. However, my point is simply that medieval people didn't have the same kinds of standards that most modern people do in regards to torture. That's not to say that nobody questioned it or that it was okay - rather it was simply the generally accepted common practice in judicial proceedings. As to the truthful confession part, the medieval people agreed with you. One of the rules of most inquisitions was that any confession elicited under torture had to be verified without threat of torture.[/quote] So Medieval people lived in a far more evil society. Torture is coming back anyhow, and our society I believe will be descending yet again. One does not make an excuse for evil, in saying, well they lived in a more wicked harsh society, it does not excuse sin. Every human has been born with a God-given conscience and those who spent their time ripping out peoples fingernails or putting them on the rack chose to ignore theirs. Just because something is commonly accepted does not give it justificiation. Fornication and abortion are commonly accepted now, does it make them any less evil? [quote] As to the whole blackmail thing - you're kind of wrong. When the inquisition was directed against common villagers, as it was in France in the 13th century, most people confessed everything they knew to get off with a light penance - not because of blackmail, but because they didn't have any theological training whatsoever, and they didn't know what to believe.[/quote] Sounds like they were hedging their bets and living in fear. Catholics were in as much danger from the Inqusition as any wayward Prots. Considering an illiterate society, Im sure lack of theological training took more then a few to the stake who just didnt know what would get them in trouble. [quote] In my university medieval history classes, we would always play a game - using medieval Catholic beliefs, was the inquisition justified? And, inevitably, every year, everyone agrees that inquisitions were justified. (This is the University of California, Santa Barbara. It is NOT a conservative or christian school). [/quote] If I was playing that game with you, I would not be going along with the group. Too many give into peer pressure. Of coruse today with endless neo-con Republicans supporting things like torture and basically the bill of Rights and Constitution being rescinded, people can be led by peer pressure to believe anything. [quote] Why? Well, following medieval catholic logic, if you aren't Catholic then you're going to hell. So if that's true, then the Church has a responsibility to protect people from going to hell by converting them to Catholicism, and making sure they're truly Catholic[/quote] Heres the problem, even in Catholic scipture, the part exists where the apostles want to call down fire on Christ-rejecters and Jesus rebukes them telling them they do not know what spirit they are of. What has happened here, is Catholicism has long ago rejected the commandments and teachings of who they claim is its founder. [quote]. In Catholic theology, this life is transient, hell is forever. So, therefore, it made a great deal of sense to establish inquisitions in order to ensure that the faithful were really faithful, and in order to root out heretics. By medieval catholic standards (and probably current ones) heretics were much worse than murderers because they murder people's souls, and people's hope of heaven[/quote]. Again it goes against the Christian gospel. Catholicism only sought its own power. There has always been an excuse made for evil. [quote] There is simply no getting around it. If you believe that your religion is the only correct religion and that those outside of it go to Hell, you do not simply have an excuse to perform inquisitions and root out heresy - you have a duty to do it in order to protect others.[/quote] No you do not. instead of running around murdering those who do not agree, you follow the teachings of Christ which is to love and convict, and leave judgement and punishment up To God. Edited November 1, 2006 by Budge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I'd define torture as mental or physical harm done against another person's will for the purpose of eliciting a desired response. [quote name='Budge' post='1107991' date='Nov 1 2006, 06:49 PM'] Thats the moral relativism way that the neo-cons have now trained people to ignore good and evil. Them claiming things like waterboarding are not torture is insanity. It seems with that question you are giving me the same line the ardent neo-cons gave on my message board many months ago. Does God's standards change for whatever epoch youre living in? I don't think so. Using the phrase, it was that time, that place to excuse evil really is moral relativism. [/quote] You're forgetting I'm an atheist, not a Catholic. I'm pretty okay with moral relativism - most of the time : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Budge, do you accept that defninition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I'd like to add, the desired response can be solely the satisfaction of the torturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Makes sense. What also makes sense is dropping this for Budge to have full steam on the debate. If you like, we can take this up later. I think you'll be surprised to find you and I agree in many areas regarding the various inquisitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' post='1108006' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:02 PM'] Makes sense. What also makes sense is dropping this for Budge to have full steam on the debate. If you like, we can take this up later. I think you'll be surprised to find you and I agree in many areas regarding the various inquisitions. [/quote] I wouldn't be all that surprised - I used to be one of the primary defenders of the Medieval Catholic church's institutions and policies on this site. : Go ask Phatcatholic, if he still posts here that is. Edited November 1, 2006 by KizlarAgha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) [quote]You're forgetting I'm an atheist, not a Catholic. [b]I'm pretty okay with moral relativism - most of the time [/b] [/quote] I believe being ok with moral relativism definitely affects this... [quote] I used to be one of the primary defenders of the Medieval Catholic church's institutions and policies on this site. [/quote] So wonder you fit in so well around here. Edited November 2, 2006 by Budge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Ooh, a zinger from the separated brethren corner. Good job, Budge. Just when I thought your wry wit had disappeared, you sink a one liner with the aplomb of Tiger Woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruso Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 En fin budge, de parte del hijo de un Judio Sefardi convertido al Cristianismo, que tras 500 años todavia tenia un nombre Español., VIVA ESPAÑA. Si de verdad sabes español, entenderas esto. Se mas que que tu y los demas de historia de España, y no voy a dar argumentos a un protestante. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 [b]Budge wrote:[/b][quote]No you do not. instead of running around murdering those who do not agree, you follow the teachings of Christ which is to love and convict, and leave judgement and punishment up To God.[/quote]Ah, if only your Protestant antecedents had practiced this, there would be a lot more Catholics in the world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Blessed Father Damien, pray for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 So on the one hand, Budge complains that we are not judging, on the other, that judgment must be left to God. I'm dizzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 [quote name='ruso' post='1109567' date='Nov 3 2006, 02:12 AM'] En fin budge, de parte del hijo de un Judio Sefardi convertido al Cristianismo, que tras 500 años todavia tenia un nombre Español., VIVA ESPAÑA. Si de verdad sabes español, entenderas esto. Se mas que que tu y los demas de historia de España, y no voy a dar argumentos a un protestante. [/quote] My Spanish friend, it is at times like this that I wish I could read Spanish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 It's no big deal, all he said was Spain is number one in futbol. geez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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