Winchester Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Ah yes, if we view our actions as participating in our salvation, then we must (in accord with the moronic principle of all or nothing) believe that we cause our own salvation. It's so clear now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Jesus is more then the door opener to salvation. He is its finisher and completer as well. He is responsible for ALL. There is no finishing the job for him. All goodness comes from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 [quote]Jesus is more then the door opener to salvation. He is its finisher and completer as well. He is responsible for ALL. There is no finishing the job for him. All goodness comes from God.[/quote] Are you arguing that we do not perticipate in our salvation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) My NAB (the 1970 version) has 1 Corinthians 24-27 translated as follows: "You know that while all the runners in the stadium take part in the race, the award goes to one man. In that case, run as to win! Athletes deny themselves all sorts of things. They do this to win acrown of leaves that withers, but we a crown that is imperishable. I do not run like a man who loses sight of the finishline. I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. What I do is [b]discipline my own body and master it[/b], for fear that after having preached to others I myself should be rejected." (The Vulgate has "castigo corpus meum", FYI). I felt it important to start at verse 24 so that we know the context of what St. Paul was speaking and then emphasized in [b]bold[/b] what my 1970 NAB translation said. If we look at this in the context of and for the purpose of "spiritual training" instead of some sick way of proving some macho frat-boy stunt, it makes perfect sense. It is also to be noted that traditionally, the "self-mastering" refers to controlling one's sexual desires, as evidenced by references to St. Francis throwing himself into thornbushes by St. Escriva. Edited October 22, 2006 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 [quote] What is "lacking in Christ's afflictiions" that Paul is able to complete in his own flesh "for the sake of His Body the Church"?[/quote] The EV-ANGEL-ISM. The work and completion is the EV = tellling, ANGEL = message, ISM = going out and doing it. The ACT was complete, but useless to the unsaved till the day they heard, and believed. [quote]It is also to be noted that traditionally, the "self-mastering" refers to controlling one's sexual desires, as evidenced by references to St. Francis throwing himself into thornbushes by St. Escriva. [/quote] It is controlling the mind, not the sex organs, the MIND is where all sin starts, and where all sin ends too. [quote]Romans 12:1 (KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,[b][u] that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,[/b][/u] that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1098426' date='Oct 22 2006, 01:50 PM'] It is controlling the mind, not the sex organs, the MIND is where all sin starts, and where all sin ends too. [/quote] I have no argument with that, but as for the second part, please keep in mind that sometimes sexual sin does end up growing in a woman's womb, if you get what I mean..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1098341' date='Oct 22 2006, 11:20 AM'] Every Catholic misinterprets that verse. Your OWN sufferings, even as horrible as they have been, {I am truly sorry for what you have gone through} will not save you. One must have total trust in the sufficency of what Christ did for us on the cross. Those who have had severe health problems will attest that becoming a Christian and no longer being told they are "holier" then others for all their sufferings, is a life of much more joy when God becomes an never-ending source of comfort to them. God is their loving Father they run into the arms of for comfort and solace. Do you view God as a loving Father? Jesus taught the blind man, it wasnt any sin you did, nor of your fathers generation. Sickness and death happen to people because of sin in the world in general. These things happen and only God knows the purpose why. Some times it can be a chastisement, other times it can be to change you, there have been others who have been broken who have come to Christ, otherwise they would have died in their sins and gone to hell. But our sufferings do not make us more holy in that we add to our own salvation, or have to "make" an addition to what Christ did on the cross for us. The book of Job definitely is an enriching one for anyone going through troubles, and the faith of Job...[b]Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.[/b] is a wonderful example. [/quote] No, Budge, every [b][i]Protestant[/i] [/b] misinterprets this verse, or they simply refuse to deal with it and ignore the plain meaning. The Church understands it exactly the way the Apostle Paul meant it when he wrote it. She didn't encounter this teaching for the first time by reading words on a page. She learned it from St. Paul's own lips. LATER, it was preserved in writing. St. Paul [b][i]taught[/i][/b] it before he [i][b]wrote[/b] [/i] it. Paul's suffering for the sake of the Church (the People of God) contributed to "what was lacking in the afflictions of Christ," that is, to his salvation (he belonged to the Church) and to the salvation of others in the Body of Christ (the Catholic Church). And St. Paul most certainly had "total trust in the sufficiency of what Christ did for us on the cross." And so does every Catholic. St. Paul most certainly regarded God as his loving Father. And so does every Catholic. That doesn't mean that we don't contribute to our own salvation and that of others through our suffering (and our good works). Your post is one example of Protestant reaction to St. Paul's words. You're playing dodge ball. ----------------------------------------- Blessed Father Damien, pray for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary-Kathryn Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1098180' date='Oct 22 2006, 01:49 AM'] There are other VERY good bibles, that the Catholic Church can use, approved at one time by the Catholic Church, the NAB isn't one of them. [/quote] I'm glad to hear that you like a good Catholic Bible. Which one do you use? [serious question here} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) [quote] I'm glad to hear that you like a good Catholic Bible. Which one do you use? [/quote] If forced to use a bible from the Alexandrian stream, I would reluctantly say the best one BY FAR, is Sungenis's new bible as it becomes fully available. It is a work in progress, but is actually up to the highest standards that NON [mod]offensive language, substitute "Catholics" instead -Raphael[/mod] have come to expect in a study bible, unlike the tripe that the NAB dishes out as commentary. [url="http://www.catholicintl.com/products/books/casb.html"]http://www.catholicintl.com/products/books/casb.html[/url] Edited October 25, 2006 by Raphael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I like the term "Mackerel Snapper." I found it in a KKK letter to the president of the University of Notre Dame in the early 1900s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Suffering is redemptive B/C of Christ. We Members are united with Christ the Head. Everything we do or undergo can thus become a prayer acceptable to God our loving Father. For what loving father says 'no' when his child says 'can i help'? "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God..." -Rom. 12:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote] I like the term "Mackerel Snapper." [/quote] What did the poor Mackerel's do to deserve that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='1101101' date='Oct 25 2006, 07:14 PM'] What did the poor Mackerel's do to deserve that?? [/quote] Ooh... ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 [quote]Self inflicted suffering is quite a different matter.[/quote] So, for all those that believe suffering by choice has no redeeming value... Are you saying that Jesus Christ did [b]not[/b] choose to be on the cross? Or maybe you are trying to tell us that His crucifixion has no redeeming value...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 [quote name='dUSt' post='1102338' date='Oct 27 2006, 11:15 AM'] So, for all those that believe suffering by choice has no redeeming value... Are you saying that Jesus Christ did [b]not[/b] choose to be on the cross? Or maybe you are trying to tell us that His crucifixion has no redeeming value...? [/quote] : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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