The Place Of Religion In Politics

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1097781' date='Oct 21 2006, 02:57 PM']
Era, the Church does not support religious freedom or separation of Church from state.
[/quote]
STM, the Church does not support forcing people to believe against their wills.

[Resurrexi]

The Church does not believe in forcing persons to believe privately, but it does believe in forcing them not to say that they do not believe.

[Era Might]

[quote]Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or by the written word. However, in spreading religious faith and in introducing religious practices everyone ought at all times to refrain from any manner of action which might seem to carry a hint of coercion or of a kind of persuasion that would be dishonorable or unworthy, especially when dealing with poor or uneducated people. Such a manner of action would have to be considered an abuse of one's right and a violation of the right of others.

In addition, it comes within the meaning of religious freedom that religious communities should not be prohibited from freely undertaking to show the special value of their doctrine in what concerns the organization of society and the inspiration of the whole of human activity. Finally, the social nature of man and the very nature of religion afford the foundation of the right of men freely to hold meetings and to establish educational, cultural, charitable and social organizations, under the impulse of their own religious sense.

--Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, "Dignitatis Humanae"[/quote]

[Anomaly]

S-Tom-M,
You obviously don't know what the catholics teach in it's entirety.

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32

1747 The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man. But the exercise of freedom does not entail the putative right to say or do anything.

2107 "If because of the circumstances of a particular people special civil recognition is given to one religious community in the constitutional organization of a state, the right of all citizens and religious communities to religious freedom must be recognized and respected as well."

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."

Matthew 18:20
"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

[CatholicCid]

I actually think I get what he's trying to get at in a little sense...

While one has their own opinion, they also have an obligation to try and reconcile their opinion with that of the Church. IE - If a Politician believes Abortion is ok, he should try to understand why he believes it's ok, understand what the Church teaches and try to reconcile his opinion with that of the Church.
However, at times, when stating a public opinion, one might have to make statements that would prevent scandal.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or by the written word. However, in spreading religious faith and in introducing religious practices everyone ought at all times to refrain from any manner of action which might seem to carry a hint of coercion or of a kind of persuasion that would be dishonorable or unworthy, especially when dealing with poor or uneducated people. Such a manner of action would have to be considered an abuse of one's right and a violation of the right of others.

In addition, it comes within the meaning of religious freedom that religious communities should not be prohibited from freely undertaking to show the special value of their doctrine in what concerns the organization of society and the inspiration of the whole of human activity. Finally, the social nature of man and the very nature of religion afford the foundation of the right of men freely to hold meetings and to establish educational, cultural, charitable and social organizations, under the impulse of their own religious sense.[/quote]

I will interpret this passage in light the Sacred Tradition (capital T) found in the Syllabus of Errors, I highly authoritative, if not infallable document. This should be iterpreted as the One True Religion (the others are really psudeo-religions) has a right to exist and cannot he hindered in public teaching.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1098000' date='Oct 21 2006, 08:15 PM']
I will interpret this passage in light the Sacred Tradition (capital T) found in the Syllabus of Errors, I highly authoritative, if not infallable document. This should be iterpreted as the One True Religion (the others are really psudeo-religions) has a right to exist and cannot he hindered in public teaching.
[/quote]
You have absolutely no authority to interpret anything. Only the Church which is headed by the Holy Father and the Bishops in union with him, have the authority to interpret based on Sacred Tradition.

[Kosh]

Well, I would say that anyone can interpret anything, but...their interpretatins don't have to be correct. Heck, even the church can make mistakes! Look at the Great Schism! (I"m not talking 'bout Papal Infallibility, o'course)

[Socrates]

[quote name='track2004' post='1097457' date='Oct 21 2006, 12:17 AM']
How much religion should be in politics is determined by the political environment. Theoracy sure all the religion you can muster. Republic not so much.

I think the Conservative Christians needs to get the heck outta (right wing) politics because it is hurting the country. Our politics is based on logic and pragmaticism and who can fight a logic that says "God says it's this way"? Personally I think we need more moderates running our country because this Rep/Dem thing is way out of hand.
[/quote]
"Determined by the political environment" my fat rear-end!
Religious truth should indeed influence one's politics as concerns matters of morality. It is nonsensical to proclaim oneself a Christian who believes in such things as the sanctity of human life and the sanctity of marriage, then turn around and vote directly contrary to Christian morality on these issues! (Whatever the "political environment" might be.)

How exactly are "Conservative Christians" in politics "hurting the country"?
(And don't give me a rant about the Iraq War, which really has nothing to do with Christianity and less to do with conservativism.)
Because our country currently has too many laws against abortion? Because our public life is just overflowing with Christian morality and religion?
Give me a break!

This country is so screwed up politically not because of an overabundance of Christian Faith and conservatism, but because both parties are way, way too liberal and given to moral relativism. (Republicans tend to be more bark than bite concerning religious values, while many Democrats are actively pushing an agenda opposed to Christian morals.)

The so-called "Christian Right" agenda is hardly radical - it mostly involves restoring or keeping what has been taken for granted in this country for most of its history: allowing states to legally restrict or outlaw the slaughter of innocent babies by abortion, and recognize marriage as only being between a man and woman, and keep the freedom to observe basic religious expression in public (such as having the Ten Commandments in public schools and courtrooms without federal judges tearing them down.)

The anti-religious godless radical pro-abort, pro-homosexual Left has been agressively pushing their agenda for decades now; yet you think they have a right to push their political agenda unopposed, while "Christian Conservatives" should "get the heck out"??!!

It seems you and your ilk simply want anti-religion banished from the public sphere, without inconvenient opposition from Christians. I suggest [b]you[/b] get the heck out of politics, and perhaps move to Communist China while you're at it! (Since you apparently prefer a system where Christianity can have no public influence)

Edited October 22, 2006 by Socrates

[track2004]

I have the utmost respect for the Republican system of government. I understand that people vote the way they do for tons of reasons, including religion. I get that Right Wing Christian Fundies (in general most aren't Catholic) have something to say and that I can't stop them because that's part of what America is. The thing is that I can have something to say too and you can't stop me either. I'm not moving to China because try as I might I can't speak Chinese.

Somewhere along the line I learned that within the government everything is based on past history. So I can't just come out of left field with an idea and make it law, it has to have some logical backing. In the same way I can't just get rid of a law because I don't like it, I have to have logic. There are many cases where judges had to decide a case one way even though their heart wasn't in it. They didn't go with what their hearts said because that wasn't their job, their job is to interpret the Consitution.

So vote the way religion tell you, or your conscience tells you, or your priest tells you, but that isn't what American law is about. Politically we're based on history and pragmaticism. You need a better reason that "God says" to make abortion illegal and to pass the gay marriage amendment. "God says" won't stand up in court.

[Budge]

I am not a Dominionist and consider the Republican party to full of endless wickedness as well as the LEFTISTS.

When a Christian thinks that the government can MAKE everyone be good {dont get me wrong I want them to outlaw things like abortion to save lives} instead of realizing that what brings people to righteousness is a change of heart via the Holy Spirit, they have lost the plot!

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Well, I would say that anyone can interpret anything, but...their interpretatins don't have to be correct. Heck, even the church can make mistakes! Look at the Great Schism! (I"m not talking 'bout Papal Infallibility, o'course).[/quote]

I beg you pardon, the Church CANNOT make mistakes as the Catechism says:

[quote name='The Catechism']8 Q. How are we certain that the Christian Doctrine which we receive from the Holy Catholic Church is really true?
A. We are certain that the doctrine which we receive from the Holy Catholic Church is true, because Jesus Christ, the divine Author of this doctrine, committed it through His Apostles to the Church, which He founded and made the infallible teacher of all men, promising her His divine assistance until the end of time.

31 Q. Are we obliged to believe all the truths the Church teaches us?
A. Yes, we are obliged to believe all the truths the Church teaches us, and Jesus Christ declares that he who does not believe is already condemned.

32 Q. Are we also obliged to do all that the Church commands?
A. Yes, we are obliged to do all that the Church commands, for Jesus Christ has said to the Pastors of the Church: "He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you, despises Me."

33 Q. Can the Church err in what she proposes for our belief?
A. No, the Church cannot err in what she proposes for our belief, since according to the promise of Jesus Christ she is unfailingly assisted by the Holy Ghost.

34 Q. Is the Catholic Church infallible, then?
A. Yes, the Catholic Church is infallible, and hence those who reject her definitions lose the faith and become heretics.

55 Q. Can the Pope err when teaching the Church?
A. The Pope cannot err, that is, he is infallible, in definitions regarding faith and morals.

56 Q. How is it that the Pope is infallible?
A. The Pope is infallible because of the promise of Jesus Christ, and of the unfailing assistance of the Holy Ghost.

57 Q. When is the Pope infallible?
A. The Pope is infallible when, as Pastor and Teacher of all Christians and in virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by all the Church.

58 Q. What sin would a man commit who should refuse to accept the solemn definitions of the Pope?
A. He who refuses to accept the solemn definitions of the Pope, or who even doubts them, sins against faith; and should he remain obstinate in this unbelief, he would no longer be a Catholic, but a heretic.

59 Q. Why has God granted to the Pope the gift of infallibility?
A. God has granted the Pope the gift of infallibility in order that we all may be sure and certain of the truths which the Church teaches.

60 Q. When was it defined that the Pope is infallible?
A. That the Pope is infallible was defined by the Church in the [First] Vatican Council; and should anyone presume to contradict this definition he would be a heretic and excommunicated.

61 Q. In defining that the Pope is infallible, has the Church put forward a new truth of faith?
A. No, in defining that the Pope is infallible the Church has not put forward a new truth of faith; but to oppose new errors she has simply defined that the infallibility of the Pope, already contained in Sacred Scripture and in Tradition, is a truth revealed by God, and therefore to be believed as a dogma or article of faith.[/quote]

[Norseman82]

It would help to review Catholic moral teaching and philosophy. There are certain things that are universally wrong, such as but not limited to abortion and homosexual behavor, no matter if you are a Catholic, evangelical, Anglican, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, whatever. This is known as "natural law" and St. Paul speaks about it in Romans 2:14-15 when he speaks abouty the law of God written upon men's hearts. These things that the Church preaches about most definitely are to be taken into consideration when in the voting booth and, for those in positions of authority, when exercising that authority. Now, as far as legislating such things that are particular to the Catholic Church, I don't think we can legislate into civil law such things as Mass attendance or Lentan fast/abstinence rules on non-Catholics, just to allow Catholics the freedom to obey them (like having government cafeterias to offer non-meat selections on fast/abstinence days).

Edited October 22, 2006 by Norseman82

[Resurrexi]

I think in a Catholic country the state could make it illegal to eat meat on Friday.

[Kosh]

StThomasMore, how would you then explain, say, The Great Schism? Or some of the "italian prince" popes? I would agree, though, that the CHURCH cannot error, though her members can. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

And as Thomas Aquinas said, you can't leglislate morality. (I don't have time to explain this better, so don't bother to refute this)