Mass In Overcrowded Churches

[cmotherofpirl]

Our pastors have always taught if you were not [i]in[/i] church when the gospel started you have to go to another Mass. If the church pews were filled, you sat on the floor and along the walls, or in the vestibules or even the doorways[sp] but you had to be there, not outside to fulfill your Mass obligation.

[onlygrace08]

Thank you so much for answering my questions!! Sorry about the ...

God Bless

Anna

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1097667' date='Oct 21 2006, 11:54 AM']
Unless you are going to another mass.....
[/quote]

The effects of sinus medication are not pretty. I can't even figure out what I was replying to. Sorry pham.

[Birgitta Noel]

I think there's two things going on here.

First:
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1099532' date='Oct 23 2006, 10:13 PM']
Our pastors have always taught if you were not [i]in[/i] church when the gospel started you have to go to another Mass.[/quote]

Yes, to the best of my understanding the Gospel is the absolute minimum starting point. Though I have heard it argued that the entire liturgy of the Word is required to have it "count." I think that's what your pastor meant by "IN" church.

Secondly:
[quote] If the church pews were filled, you sat on the floor and along the walls, or in the vestibules or even the doorways[sp] but you had to be there, not outside to fulfill your Mass obligation.
[/quote]
I've never heard this. I can think of Easter one year when we arrived just after mass began and there was no room in the Church and it was stifiling IN the Church. We stood just outside the doors on the steps of the Church. While it was admittedly less than ideal we still "participated" in the mass and intended to attend the mass. We were physically present though not under the roof of the Church.

I'm not sure if that's where the confusion or disagreement is, but that's where I saw things getting all confused

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1099386' date='Oct 23 2006, 08:32 PM']
Let me ask you this.....who is participating more....the Jewish man who sits up front, makes the responses, sits, stands, kneels, sings and prays.....or the little old Catholic lady in the back of the church praying her rosary, until the consecration, puts it away, then gets it back out and continues until Holy Communion?
[/quote]

Whoever offers their heart in worship.

Isn't that what's missing from this conversation? We all know what the Church says, but that stuff assumes that you're offering the sacrifice of a contrite heart. If you want to be there to worship God and the sanctuary is too crowded, then it's a situation outside of your control.

Don't worry so much about following the letter of the law that it takes the joy out of being a Christian.

Besides, after Communion there will be enough empty seats that you can go inside and get your final blessing and sing a little song.

[Cam42]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1100042' date='Oct 24 2006, 12:59 PM']
Whoever offers their heart in worship.

Isn't that what's missing from this conversation? We all know what the Church says, but that stuff assumes that you're offering the sacrifice of a contrite heart. If you want to be there to worship God and the sanctuary is too crowded, then it's a situation outside of your control.

Don't worry so much about following the letter of the law that it takes the joy out of being a Christian.

Besides, after Communion there will be enough empty seats that you can go inside and get your final blessing and sing a little song.
[/quote]

Nope that is not the right answer the right answer is the little old lady. The Jewish man doesn't have the advantage of santcifying grace.

Also, we as Catholics find the spirit of the Law, in the letter of the Law.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Yes, to the best of my understanding the Gospel is the absolute minimum starting point. Though I have heard it argued that the entire liturgy of the Word is required to have it "count." I think that's what your pastor meant by "IN" church.[/quote]

No, the Gospel is not the minimum starting point, you don't even have to attend any of the Mass of the Catechumans under pain of mortal sin... It's the beginning of the Offeratory by which you must be assisting at the Holy Sacrifice under pain of mortal sin.

[quote]Our pastors have always taught if you were not in church when the gospel started you have to go to another Mass. [/quote]

Well, my Catechism says I only have to go to another Holy Sacrifice (if it be a Sunday or Holyday) if you don't make it there by the Offeratory through your own fault (I don't think you have to assist at another Holy Sacrifice if you're late through no fault of your own, though I may be wrong.)

[quote]If the church pews were filled, you sat on the floor and along the walls, or in the vestibulesor even the doorways[sp] but you had to be there, not outside to fulfill your Mass obligation.[/quote]

Well, you should probably be in the church if it's not completely full to the point of bursting, I think, from the answers I've gotten, that if all the standing room is completely filled and people are standing outside of the church becuase there are so many people desiring to assist at that Holy Sacrifice, then standing outside the church fufillis your obligation.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1100077' date='Oct 24 2006, 03:45 PM']
Nope that is not the right answer the right answer is the little old lady. The Jewish man doesn't have the advantage of santcifying grace.

Also, we as Catholics find the spirit of the Law, in the letter of the Law.
[/quote]

Well, I think more than a few Catholics focus so much on the letter of the Law and despair over losing their salvation because they got stuck in traffic and walked into Mass as the priest was saying the third word of the Gospel reading ("Does that count???? Am I going to Hell???") that they offer a completely unappealing witness to the Christian life. Of course, it's good that they care, but we all need to watch for going to one extreme or the other (myself included... I'm not saying I'm right, but this is my honest opinion).

As for the little old lady and the Jewish guy, we can't say if one, both, or neither of them is "participating more" (I presume you mean participation of the heart, which is helped by, but not a direct result of, participation of the body). We don't know their hearts and the state of their relationship with God. We can only view their actions.

[Resurrexi]

The Jew doesn't have Sanctifying Grace or even the External Graces attached to being a Member of the Church that you have even when you are in a state of Mortal Sin.

[Cam42]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1101013' date='Oct 25 2006, 03:48 PM']
Well, I think more than a few Catholics focus so much on the letter of the Law and despair over losing their salvation because they got stuck in traffic and walked into Mass as the priest was saying the third word of the Gospel reading ("Does that count???? Am I going to Hell???") that they offer a completely unappealing witness to the Christian life. Of course, it's good that they care, but we all need to watch for going to one extreme or the other (myself included... I'm not saying I'm right, but this is my honest opinion).

As for the little old lady and the Jewish guy, we can't say if one, both, or neither of them is "participating more" (I presume you mean participation of the heart, which is helped by, but not a direct result of, participation of the body). We don't know their hearts and the state of their relationship with God. We can only view their actions.
[/quote]

Here is the best explaination of [i]participatio actuosa[/i] out there:

[quote name='Participation; Mons. Richard J. Schuler']With the constitution on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, issued in 1965 by the Second Vatican Council, everyone became very conscious of personal participation in the sacred liturgy, particularly in the Mass.

But active participation in in the liturgy was not a concept created by the Second Vatican Council. Indeed, even the very words actuosa participatio can be found in the writings of the popes for the past one hundred years. Pope Pius X called for it in his motu proprio, Tra le sollecitudini, published in 1903, when he said that "the faithful assemble to draw that spirit from its primary and indispensable source, that is, from active participation in the sacred mysteries and in the public and solemn prayer of the Church."

Pope Pius XI in his apostolic constitution, Divini cultus, wrote in 1928, that the restoration of Gregorian chant for the use of the people would provide the means whereby "the faithful may participate in divine worship more actively." Such participation was to be achieved both by singing and by an appreciation of the beauty of the liturgy which stirs the heart of the worshiper, who thereby enters into the sacred mysteries.

In his encyclicals, Mystici corporus in 1943, and Mediator Dei in 1947, Pope Pius XII used the term but carefully insisted that true participation was not merely external but consisted in a baptismal union with Christ in His Mystical Body, the Church.

In 1958, the Sacred Congregation of Rites issued the instruction, De musica sacra, which distinguished several qualities of participation:

The Mass of its nature requires that all those present participate in it, in the fashion proper to each.

This participation must primarily be interior (i.e., union with Christ the Priest; offering with and through Him).

b) But the participation of those present becomes fuller (plenior) if to internal attention is joined external participation, expressed, that is to say, by external actions such as the position of the body (genuflecting, standing, sitting), ceremonial gestures, or, in particular, the responses, prayers and singing . . .

It is this harmonious form of participation that is referred to in pontifical documents when they speak of active participation (participatio actuosa), the principal example of which is found in the celebrating priest and his ministers who, with due interior devotion and exact observance of the rubrics and ceremonies, minister at the altar.

c) Perfect participatio actuosa of the faithful, finally, is obtained when there is added sacramental participation (by communion).

d) Deliberate participatio actuosa of the faithful is not possible without their adequate instruction.

It is made clear that it is baptismal character that forms the foundation of active participation.

Vatican II introduced no radical alteration in the concept of participatio actuosa as fostered by the popes for the past decades. The general principle is contained in Article 14 of the constitution on the sacred liturgy:

Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious and active participation in the ceremonies which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy.

Such participation by the Christian people as a "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people" (I Pet. 2:9; 2:4-5) is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.

In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true spirit of Christ . . .

The word "full" (plena) refers to the integrally human fashion in which the baptized faithful take part in the liturgy, i.e., internally and externally. The word "conscious" (conscia) demands a knowledge of what one is doing on the part of the faithful, excluding any superstition or false piety. But the word "active" (actuosa) requires some greater examination.

A true grasp of the meaning of participation in the liturgy demands a clear understanding of the nature of the Church and above all of Christ Himself. At the basis of so much of today's problems in liturgy lies a false notion of Christology and ecclesiology. Christ, the incarnate Word of God, true God and true Man, lives on in this world now. "I will be with you all days until the end of the world." Even though He has arisen and ascended into heaven, He lives with us. The Church is His mystical Body, indeed His mystical Person. We are the members of that Body. Its activity, the activity of the Church, is the activity of Christ, its Head. The hierarchical priesthood functions in the very person of Christ, doing His work of teaching, ruling and sanctifying. Thus the Mass and the sacraments are Christ's actions bringing to all the members of His Body, the Church, the very life that is in its Head. Participation in that life demands that every member of the Body take part in that action, which is primarily the liturgical activity of the Church. The liturgy is the primary source of that divine life, and thus all must be joined to it in an active way. Baptism is the key that opens the door and permits one to become part of the living Body of Christ. The baptized Christian has not only a right to participation in the Church's life but a duty as well. It is only the baptized person who can participate.

The difference between participation in the liturgy that can be called activa and participation that can be lablled actuosa rests in the presence in the soul of the baptismal character, the seal that grants one the right to participate. Without the baptismal mark, all the actions of singing, walking, kneeling or anything else can be termed "active," but they do not constitute participatio actuosa. Only the baptismal character can make any actions truly participatory. Let us use an example. LEt us say that a pious Hindu attends Mass, takes part in the singing and even walks in a procession with great piety. In the same church is also a Catholic who is blind and deaf and who is unable to leave his chair; he can neither sing nor hear the readings nor walk in the procession. Which one has truly participated, the one who is very active, or the one who has confined himself solely to his thoughts of adoration? Obviously, it is the baptized Catholic who has exercised participatio actuosa despite his lack of external, physical movement. The Hindu even with his many actions has not been capable of it, since he lacks the baptismal character.

Granting then the absolute necessity of baptism, it still is imperative for the Christian to take part in the liturgy actively by a variety of actions. This means that the internal actuosa participatio, which the baptismal mark empowers, must be aided by those external actions that he is capable of. He should do those things that the Church sets out for him according to his role in the liturgy and the various conditions that age, social position and cultural background dictate. He must join participatio activa to his participatio actuosa which he exercises as a baptismal person.

What are those actions that make for true active participation in the liturgy? These must be both internal and external in quality, since man is a rational creature with body and soul. The external actions must be intelligent and understood, sincere and pious internally. The Church proposes many bodily positions: kneeling, standing, walking, sitting, etc. It likewise proposes many human actions: singing, speaking, listening and above all else, the reception of the Holy Eucharist. They demand internal attention as well as external execution.

One of the most active and demanding of human actions is that of listening. It requires strict attention and summons up in a person his total concentrative effort. It is possible, for example, to walk without really knowing that one is walking or advert to where one is going. It is possible even to sing, especially a very familiar tune, and not be conscious of actually singing. But one cannot truly listen without attention. Especially in our day of constant radio and TV broadcasting, we are able to tune out almost every sound we wish. To listen attentively demands full human concentration. Listening can be the most active form of participation, demanding effort and attention. Truly, as the scriptures tell us, faith demands hearing, fides ex auditu.

With that in mind, surely the baptized Christian who listens with care to the proclamation of the gospel or the singing of the preface at Mass truly has achieved participation, both activa and actuosa.

The Church does not have the entire congregation proclaim the gospel text, but rather the deacon or the priest does it. It is the duty of all to listen. The cannon of the Mass is not to be recited by everyone but all are to hear it. Listening is a most important form of active participation.

There is a variety of roles to be observed in the public celebration of the liturgy. There is the role of the priest, deacon, reader, cantor, choir and congregation, among many others. Because each office has its own purpose and its own manner of acting we have the basic reason for a distinction of roles. If the reader or the cantor is to read and sing, certainly the role of the others is to listen. If the choir is to sing, someone must listen and in so-doing participate actively in the liturgy, even if during the period of listening he is relatively inactive in a physical way.

Every age has participated in the liturgy through baptism, as members of the Church and part of the mystical body of Christ. All ages have shared in the right and duty of actuosa participatio. If, as Pius X insists, the liturgy is the primary source of the Christian life, everyone must take part in it to achieve salvation. Active participation is not an invention of our day; the Church throughout the ages constantly shared the life of Christ with its members in the Mass and the sacraments, the very actions of Christ Himself working through His Church and His priesthood. For each age the activities deemed by it to be useful in promoting that participation have varied according to the needs and ideas of the period. One cannot say that because the medieval period developed a chant that was largely the possession of monastic choirs, the congregations who listened were not actively participating. Perhaps not according to post-Vatican II standards, but one must carefully avoid the error of judging the past by the present and applying to former times criteria that seem valuable in our own times. Because Palestrina's polyphonic Masses require the singing of trained choirs, can one assume that non-choir members in the renaissance period were deprived of an active participation in the liturgy? No age could permit such a thing to happen and thus be deprived of the primary source of the spiritual life. The sixteenth-century baptized Roman did participate through listening along with other activites, as no doubt an eighteenth-century Austrian did when he heard a Mozart Mass performed by a choir and orchestra.

We must then carefully consider the roles of each individual, and we must consider the cultural and personal conditions of each one who must find in the liturgy the primary source of his spiritual life. A variety of opportunities for liturgical activity is needed, and good pastoral direction will supply the need. The Church herself does so by the very rubrics of the liturgical books, directing what is to be done. The Vatican Council taught the need of various functions and various roles to carry out completely the liturgical actions.

Surely the spoken and sung responses and acclamations in the liturgy are the right and the duty of all present. But the practice of calling the Sanctus an acclamation is without foundation; it is a hymn, found in the Old Testament and sung by the angels. It is not the exclusive perogative of the congregation as it might be thought to be if it is labelled an acclamation. As a hymn it can be given to a trained group and sung in a more elaborate setting. The same is true of the parts called the ordinary of the Mass, including the Credo, which may be listened to and consented to with great faith without having to be spoken by the congregation. The proper parts of the Mass, because of the great variety of texts and settings, fall of necessity to trained and practiced groups. One may, of course, never exclude the congregation totally from participation by singing, but the variety of methods allows for many possiblities for participation by singing or by listening to singing. The possibilities of participation are almost infinite.

Important too for any participation in the liturgy is the elevation of the spirit of the worshipper. Ultimately, liturgy is prayer, the supreme prayer of adoration, thanksgiving, petition and reparation. Prayer is the raising of the heart and the mind to God as Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. The means to achieve such elevation of the spirit in prayer onvolve all the activities of the human person, both spirit and body. Such means produce true actuosa participatio. Thus beauty, whether it appeals to the sight, the ear, the imagination or any of the senses, is an important element in achieving participation. The architectural splendor of a great church or the sound of great music, or the solemnity of ceremonial movement by ministers clothed in precious vestments, or the beauty of the proclaimed word - all can effect a true and salutary participation in one who himself has not sung a note or taken a step. But he is not a mere spectator as some would say; he is actively participating because of his baptismal character and the grace stirred up in him by what he is seeing and hearing, thinking and praying.

The Church has always promoted Gregorian chant. Especially during this past century, the popes have fostered the music of the renaissance polyphonists. Pope John Paul II celebrated Mass in St. Peter's Basilica with the Vienna orchestra and singers doing Mozart's Coronation Mass. Anyone who was present on that memorable occasion in that great church experienced true participation.

Thus to limit participation to singing impoverishes seriously the opportunity of the Christian to take part in the most essential means for his salvation. One does not have to sing to save his soul. But one must be active (actuosa participatio) in the liturgy, through baptism and other actions according to his ability, state, culture and disposition, in order to enter into the mystery of the redemption wrought by Christ, outside of which there is no salvation.

We can conclude with this definition of participatio actuosa:

(It is) that form of devout involvement in the liturgical action which, in the present conditions of the Church, best promotes the exercise of the common priesthood of the baptized: that is, their power to offer the sacrifice of the Mass with Christ and to receive the sacraments. It is clear that, concretely, this requires that the faithful understand the liturgical ceremonial; that they take part in it by bodily movements, standing, kneeling or sitting as the occasion may demand; that they join vocally in the parts which are intended for them. It also requires that they listen to, and understand, the liturgy of the word. It requires, too, that there be moments of silence when the import of the whole ceremonial may be absorbed and deeply personalized. (Colman E. O'Neill, "The Theological Meaning of Actuosa Participatio in the Liturgy," in Sacred Music and Liturgy Reform after Vatican II. Consociatio Internationalis Musicae Sacrae, Rome, 1969. p. 105.)[/quote]

The little old lady participates more, because of her Baptism. That is the key.....

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1101190' date='Oct 25 2006, 09:29 PM']
The Jew doesn't have Sanctifying Grace or even the External Graces attached to being a Member of the Church that you have even when you are in a state of Mortal Sin.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand. The sacraments are tied to God's grace, not the other way around. That means we never take anything receive sacramentally for granted.

And what good does the Gospel do for those who claim to accept it yet do not love God? Is it not better to love God without having yet accepted the Gospel?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1101815' date='Oct 26 2006, 05:49 PM']
The little old lady participates more, because of her Baptism. That is the key.....
[/quote]

Okay, I see where you're coming from, but I still don't think we can automatically say the old lady is participating more just because she is baptized while the Jew is not. If the old lady is a hateful person outside of church who has essentially segmented prayer and attending Mass from the rest of her life (like many Christians do) while the Jew is honestly seeking to know and worship God, I have trouble believing the Jew doesn't participate more.

And this gets to what may be the biggest problem in Catholicism. There is so much emphasis on just the sacraments that nobody knows why we've been given the sacraments and how they are supposed to help us grow deeper in our Christian life. Being baptized only makes you a Christian on the outside. There are a lot of baptized people who aren't going to Heaven and a lot of people going to Heaven who aren't baptized! They are the mystical Body of Christ, and that Jewish man at Mass could be within the mystical body while the old lady praying her rosary is not!

[Cam42]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1102839' date='Oct 27 2006, 05:43 PM']
Okay, I see where you're coming from, but I still don't think we can automatically say the old lady is participating more just because she is baptized while the Jew is not. If the old lady is a hateful person outside of church who has essentially segmented prayer and attending Mass from the rest of her life (like many Christians do) while the Jew is honestly seeking to know and worship God, I have trouble believing the Jew doesn't participate more.

And this gets to what may be the biggest problem in Catholicism. There is so much emphasis on just the sacraments that nobody knows why we've been given the sacraments and how they are supposed to help us grow deeper in our Christian life. Being baptized only makes you a Christian on the outside. There are a lot of baptized people who aren't going to Heaven and a lot of people going to Heaven who aren't baptized! They are the mystical Body of Christ, and that Jewish man at Mass could be within the mystical body while the old lady praying her rosary is not!
[/quote]

It is precisely because of the Sacraments that we have the advantage over the Protestants. Being baptized doesn't simply make you a Christian on the outside. The Sacrament brings you into the Body of Christ. From that point it is catechesis, but that doesn't lessen the importance of the Sacraments.

And as far as the old lady v. Jewish man is concerned, regardless of action, it is the Sacramental aspect that brings her closer to salvation. Let's not forget that for all the good the Jews have done and the fact that they are the Chosen People, that Covenant has been fulfilled and it is they who have not accepted the fulfillment of said Covenant. (That is for another thread, though) The old lady clearly has the advantage.