Biblical Belief Quiz

[Winchester]

[quote]No, you actually believe that FAITH is just a downpayment, and REAL SALVATION comes via your works. In fact, you can be so WORK ORIENTED, that you can transfer your excess "goodness" to others.

If you want, we can teach you what your church teaches, not what you think it does, just let us know, ok?
[/quote]

I looked it up, dear boy, but I couldn't find the "down payment" paragraph in the Catechism. I recall something dimly from the Bible (I broke into the Secret Archives after knocking out and tying up some Opus Dei goons and read one!) about faith without works being dead...

You're being mischevious, with all your contempt and oversimplification. It's not becoming the Christian man to be so. But it is ever so precious.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1096754' date='Oct 20 2006, 11:32 AM']

If you want, we can teach you what your church teaches, not what you think it does, just let us know, ok?
[/quote]
If we don't know what our church teaches, then how would you? We'd be getting the information from the same sources, in the end. Why would they lie to us and not to you?

[Mary-Kathryn]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1096754' date='Oct 20 2006, 12:32 PM']
If you want, we can teach you what your church teaches, not what you think it does, just let us know, ok?
[/quote]


Thank you for the kind offer on teaching me the faith. However, When you come home to The Church, I look forward to many wonderful conversations!

God Bless and have a wonderful Sunday!


edited by me :

Edited October 21, 2006 by Mary-Kathryn

[Eutychus]

[quote]I looked it up, dear boy, but I couldn't find the "down payment" paragraph in the Catechism. [/quote]

Apparently you didn't look all that hard. *I used* the word DOWNPAYMENT, for what it clearly states in CCC 2027.

[quote]Catechism of the Catholic Church

2027 No one can merit [u]the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion.[/u] Moved by the Holy Spirit, [b][u]we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, [/u][/b]as well as necessary temporal goods.[/quote]

They used "initial grace" .... as in INITIAL payment. Thereafter, WORKS/MERIT/DUTIES/SACRAMENTS/INDULGENCES/GOOD DEEDs will *MERIT YOU* and if you are just so darned GOOD, your *extra merits* are transferrable, as in give them to others, if you are a WORKAHOLIC with too much for your own WORKS BASED SALVATION program.

Nice attempt as weasling out of the clearly stated program here, but this old boy ain't buy'n it.

Edited October 21, 2006 by Eutychus

[Winchester]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1097989' date='Oct 21 2006, 07:31 PM']
Apparently you didn't look all that hard. *I used* the word DOWNPAYMENT, for what it clearly states in CCC 2027.
They used "initial grace" .... as in INITIAL payment. Thereafter, WORKS/MERIT/DUTIES/SACRAMENTS/INDULGENCES/GOOD DEEDs will *MERIT YOU* and if you are just so darned GOOD, your *extra merits* are transferrable, as in give them to others, if you are a WORKAHOLIC with too much for your own WORKS BASED SALVATION program.

Nice attempt as weasling out of the clearly stated program here, but this old boy ain't buy'n it.
[/quote]

So initial and down are equivalent. You have sacrificed accuracy for sarcasm. Tsk, tsk.

Initial means first, as well (pesky multiple usages do so trip you up) The intial grace is not merited. Our salvation from Christ is not merited by our actions. The grace given us to believe is not merited, it is a gift. God's revelation to man the He exists is not merited, it is given out of love. The actions (since man is body and soul, he must act as well as simply believe, hence faith and works being intertwined) taken are an active participation in the plan of salvation. That's how I understand it, and that's how it's taught.

Nice try with mutilating the meaning, but this boy ain't buying it.

In fairness, when I get my catechism, I'll look up these and check the context (again) to make sure you're not right.

[Winchester]

[quote]2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.

2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 # 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.: PG 44, 300D).

2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).
[/quote]

It appears to me to be a lesson on merit and the ways in which grace is conferred. Check out 2025.

Please make an honest attempt to read the whole section when you see the quote from somebody trying to prove we believe in salvation by works alone (you must mean works alone, since you mention it alone.) We are saved by faith. Faith is not mere belief, it is action (work.) Faith without works is dead.

Honesty behooves the Christian.

[Budge]

Intial grace isnt complete grace.

Why must Catholicism always constantly devalue what Christ has done?

Why do they always NEED to ADD to it?

[Winchester]

We're not adding, we're taking it into action. It is enough to save you. It does save you.

But you must maintain your faith.

What is not getting through, here?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1098343' date='Oct 22 2006, 11:24 AM']
Intial grace isnt complete grace.

Why must Catholicism always constantly devalue what Christ has done?

Why do they always NEED to ADD to it?
[/quote]

Because God inspired St. Paul to write in Philippians 2:12 to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Please note that I did the courtesy of using the KJV for you).

[Justified Saint]

Ah, the true mark of religious snobbery -- when you tell other people what they "actually" believe. This is a typical fundamentalist defense/fear mechanism.

[Guest Snoopy]

My heart becomes so heavy when I read threads like this. There was no Christian charity involved in starting it at all. Do we all believe that Christ died for our sins? I think the answer is a big yes! Do we believe that through God's grace we are offered salvation? Again, yes. If we believe in Christ and His salvation, shouldn't we show love to one another? Obviously there is a large disagreement on some issues here. I think that Christian charity demands that we disengage. I know that unkind words won't win anyone to the other's faith.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1097759' date='Oct 21 2006, 01:51 PM']
If we don't know what our church teaches, then how would you? We'd be getting the information from the same sources, in the end. Why would they lie to us and not to you?
[/quote]


What is funny is that only anti-catholics teach what our Church teaches. Noone in the church ever teaches the real stuff the Church teaches. Not even the Pope. If they ever taught it you would know how evil the Catholic Church really is. Budge and Euty are doing us a favor with their moronic nonsense. Not to be uncharitable or anything. It just can't be said any other way.

Blessings

Edited October 23, 2006 by thessalonian