Baptism....

[jswranch]

Some say it is optional, others say it is required. Some believe it is nice, others that it is unnessisary, still some believe it is how you are born again.


What do you say?

What does the bible say?

Does your profession match the bible?

[jswranch]

Please, comment on each of the following verse to show how they do or do not correlate to your beliefs:
(ESV, for somewhat neutral translation)
Born again:

Jn 3:3-7
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is [b]born again[/b] he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

1 Pt 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be [b]born again[/b] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Pet 1:23
Being [b]born again[/b], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Baptism:
Mt 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, [b]baptizing [/b] them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mk 1:8 (cf Lk 3:16)
I have baptized you with water, but he will [b]baptize [/b] you with the Holy Spirit."

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is [b]baptized[/b] will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38-41
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be [b]baptized [/b] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41So those who received his word were [b]baptized[/b], and there were added that day about three thousand souls.


Acts 8:12-13
But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were [b]baptized[/b], both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being [b]baptized [/b] he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

Acts 10:47
"Can anyone withhold water for [b]baptizing [/b] these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Romans 6:4
We were buried therefore with him by [b]baptism [/b] into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were [b]baptized [/b] into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in [b]baptism[/b], in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5
[Jesus] saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the [b]washing [/b] [bath] of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:21
[b]Baptism[/b], which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1 Jn 5:6-8
6This is he who came by [u]water [/u] and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the [b]water[/b] only but by the [u]water [/u] and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the [u]water and the blood[/u]; and these three agree.

Edited October 17, 2006 by jswranch

[jswranch]

I suppose I can go first

[quote]Jn 3:3-7
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is [b]born again[/b] he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'[/quote]

Ok, born again comes by a matter of water and spirit. There is a spiritual side and a physical/tangiable side. This occurs at baptism. We are then born again.

[quote]1 Pt 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be [b]born again[/b] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,[/quote]

Ok, Jesus is the cause of us being born again (Sola Cristus), not we ourselves.

[quote]1 Pet 1:23
Being [b]born again[/b], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.[/quote]

Born again, as vs. 22 says, by obedience to the truth.

Baptism:
[quote]Mt 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, [b]baptizing[/b] them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[/quote]

But wait, I thought making desicple of Christ meant leading nonbelievers to have a ' personal relationship with Jesus Christ,' but here Jesus tells them to be baptized???? Apparently Jesus does not equate a strong emotional experience with becoming one of his discples.

[quote]Mk 1:8 (cf Lk 3:16)
I have baptized you with water, but he will [b]baptize[/b] you with the Holy Spirit."[/quote]

Ok, so we are now wash not just in water and repentance, but now with the Spirit and are maked by it.


[quote]Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is [b]baptized[/b] will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.[/quote]

Well it looks like someone can be saved through baptism and believing (faith), but if we do not believe after being saved, we will be condemned (go to hell).

[quote]Acts 2:38-41
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be [b]baptized[/b] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41So those who received his word were [b]baptized[/b], and there were added that day about three thousand souls.[/quote]

See comments on Mt 28:18. If we are to be born again and covered in the blood of Jesus by simply asking jesus into our hearts (still a good thing), why does Peter say 'be baptized.. for the forgiveness of your sins'??? Peter makes it sound as if Baptism washes away our sins.... which is my position. Note vs. 41 which indicates thousands were brought into the fold of Christians by baptism, not by simply asking Jesus into their hearts and having an emotional, spiritual experience.

[quote]Acts 8:12-13
But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were [b]baptized[/b], both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being [b]baptized[/b] he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.[/quote]

So signs and wonders comes first from the grace of baptism, not some emotional experience.

[quote]Acts 10:47
"Can anyone withhold water for [b]baptizing [/b] these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"[/quote]

Ok, so you can receive the holy spirit before baptism. Hmm... good question, let us discuss this later (see 1 Jn 5)


[quote]Romans 6:4
We were buried therefore with him by [b]baptism[/b] into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.[/quote]

Sounds like walking with newness of life is the same as being born again. So:

born again=walking in newness of life

From this verse, we see the newness of life occurs at our baptism. Therefore:

baptism=born again !!!!!!!


Galatians 3:27
[i]For as many of you as were [b]baptized[/b] into Christ have put on Christ.[/i]

If we want to be placed in the saving cloak for Jesus, and come into his fold, we do so by baptism.



Colossians 2:12
[i]having been buried with him in [b]baptism[/b], in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.[/i]

Born and raised... sounds like Jn 3... which is being born again into a new life in Christ. Again we see this being born again= baptism.


[i]Titus 3:5
[Jesus] saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the [b]washing [/b] [bath] of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,[/i]


Ok, this bath of the Holy Spirit (baptism) is regenerates and renews us... causes us to be born again.

[i]1 Peter 3:21
[b]Baptism[/b], which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,[/i]

Ok, Baptism now saves us. Does this mean all that are saved will go to heaven? No! Look back to Mk16:16. We have to continue in belief and our walk with Christ. If we do not have faith, we have nothing even though we were once saved.

[i]1 Jn 5:6-8
6This is he who came by [u]water[/u] and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the [b]water[/b] only but by the [u]water[/u] and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the [u]water and the blood[/u]; and these three agree.[/i]

Hmm... looks like something discussed in Acts 10. Apparently we see a water and blood and spirit(baptism). It looks like not all baptism come from water! Perhaps it can come from water baptism, a blood baptism, and a desiring or spiritual baptism which 'these three agree.' I suppose those folks in Acts 10 has some sort of annointing, but the Apostles still thought it necessary they be baptized with water. This three forms of baptism also explains how folks like the good thief on the cross could possibly still go to heave even though he did not have a water baptism... he simple [u]desired[/u] the truth!!!!

[Socrates]

It would be madness to disagree. . . .

[Briguy]

That is just way too much stuff to respond to in one post. Lots of misinterpretation above. Well meaning, yes, but out of context. Acts 2:38 for example is a Baptism of repentance for Isreal, it is not believer baptism and not written for Gentiles at all.

It is a dangerous thing to "prove" a doctrine by finding verses to support the doctine. It is far better to understand the verses and let the doctrine flow from the understanding.

more later,

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian,

That you giving infallible interpretations again that almost noone on the internet agrees with. Your a one man show Brian. Trust not in your own understanding. The Church is the pillar and support of the truth not individual opinions by someone who has no scholarship, no historic depth, and his own personal whims and biases to color what he thinks and how everyone gets saved.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Briguy' post='1094701' date='Oct 18 2006, 08:42 AM']It is a dangerous thing to "prove" a doctrine by finding verses to support the doctine. It is far better to understand the verses and let the doctrine flow from the understanding.[/quote]

Which is why I'm so bothered by things like [url="http://www.fishthe.net/digitracts/roman.htm#RomanRoad"]The Roman Road[/url]

[Briguy]

Hey Gerald, How you been? I hope and trust you have been well. I don't mean to appear different from other Christians and I believe I am more mainstream then you think. I love the mysteries of God and like to understand the Bible the best I can. Sometimes indeed as I look into certain passages of scripture I find out how little I know and how much more understanding I need. Your comments I think refer to what I said on Acts 2:38. Well, it reads: (KJV)

34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
[35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If read carefully you will see that Isreal had become God's enemy (foe) by killing God's son. To regain proper standing Peters tells them to Repent and to show the repentance is real, to be baptized and thus they would be open to the receiving of Christ, by faith. This answer of Peter's is a direct answer to the question What should we do? The we are the people of Isreal, that is fully clear. This passage only applies to the "we". If you are not part of the "We" it does not apply to you. In fact, I contend that this "baptism of repentance" applied only at that time. Now, a jewish person would be able to just recieve Christ, by faith, and be saved. At that time a "Baptism of repentance" was needed to get God's people Isreal, into a position where they could be saved. Read a little farther and you will see salvation mentioned by Peter, but no mention of baptism, hmmm must be a reason, right?.

Hope that made some sense as a lot of times what is in my head gets lost on the way to my fingers. Take care my friend,

Brian

Hi homeschoolmom, We homeschool as well. Keep up the good work!

[thessalonian]

Hi Brian, I pretty much figured you would expand out the passage, declare a context and insert logical fallacies about that context, ignore the rest of scripture and then declare victory.
Yes, Brian, I understand how you have twisted it. Your problem is not proof texting. It's proof passaging. You take Acts 2:38 out of context of the scriptures themselves. That Peter told those who were "we" to do it cannot be construed as you have as a pass not to have anyone else do it. It is sad that you will go to such lengths to "prove" your false teachings against baptism which you have held for many years now. That the context is to the Jews does not prove the conclusion you draw that it was not meant for anyone else. That the Jews did what you say does not make such conclusions proven either by any strech of the imagination.

I suppose some will use your obvuscating with the word "we" to write themselves out of this passage as well.

[6] If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth;
[7] but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
[8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Very sad that you continue to exalt yourself and your own personal teachings Brian. I do not know what God will say when you come before him if you have influenced someone not to undergo baptism because of your false teachings. Sorry if I am not overly gentle but Jesus was harsh with the scribes and pharasees who refused to see truth as well. I am sure you understand. I do like you in spite of your wretched errors.



[13] He answered, "Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.
[14] Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."



Oh, I suppose you will say that passage doesn't apply to anyone today and could only be applied to Jewish leaders because that is whom it is spoken of? No Brian it applies to false teachers in general. The pit is deap.

By the way, haven't we had that discussion about who killed God's son?

Blessings

Edited October 18, 2006 by thessalonian

[son_of_angels]

Ok, so someone here used the phrase "Sola Christus." That is an utter tragedy. If you're trying to say "by Christ alone," your only option is to use the form "Solo Christo" or even "Iesu Solo" (by Jesus alone). Thank you.

[jswranch]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1094735' date='Oct 18 2006, 08:33 AM']
Which is why I'm so bothered by things like [url="http://www.fishthe.net/digitracts/roman.htm#RomanRoad"]The Roman Road[/url]
[/quote]

My favorite part of the article is, "There are no religious formulas or rituals," which preceeds the religious formula of the Sinners Prayer, "Father, I know that I have broken your laws..." The Sinners Prayer is usually performed as part of the religious ritual of the 'alter call.'

[jswranch]

[quote name='Briguy' post='1094935' date='Oct 18 2006, 12:29 PM']
If read carefully you will see that Isreal had become God's enemy (foe) by killing God's son.[/quote]
Actually foe/enemy refered to is those opposing Israel, not Israel herself. Biblically, when Israel departs from God, she is refered to as an adultress. When someone attacks Israel, they are the enemies of God.

[quote]To regain proper standing Peters tells them to Repent and to show the repentance is real, to be baptized and thus they would be open to the receiving of Christ, by faith.[/quote]

Sorry, Peter tells them to [b]repent and be baptized[/b] in order to regain proper standing with God. [size=5]Nowhere in the bible does it say baptism is a function of showing repentence.[/size] Does it not bug you that you understand the scriptures on baptism based on your doctrine, not stated in scripture??? If you can prove scripture says this, then I will renounce my Catholicism tomorrow, even though I joined it less than a year ago.

[quote]This answer of Peter's is a direct answer to the question What should we do?[/quote]

To which he responds, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Notice, he did not say, "Repent and then be baptized to show God you actually repented."

[quote]The we are the people of Isreal, that is fully clear. This passage only applies to the "we". If you are not part of the "We" it does not apply to you.[/quote]

First, nowhere does it say this "We" refers to the people of Israel. This 'we' is the guys who showed up for Pentacost.

Second, if you are correct that (1) 'not part of the "We"' applies to you and I today, and (2) your private, fallible interpretation that Peter meant baptism is a sign we do for God to show our repentance, then Peter's words do not apply today.

[quote]In fact, I contend that this "baptism of repentance" applied only at that time. Now, a jewish person would be able to just recieve Christ, by faith, and be saved. At that time a "Baptism of repentance" was needed to get God's people Isreal, into a position where they could be saved.
[/quote]

No. The 'baptism of repentance' was performed by John the Baptist. The Baptism Peter refers to is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or Trinitarian Baptism brought to us by Christ. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is as powerful today as it ever was.

[quote]Read a little farther and you will see salvation mentioned by Peter, but no mention of baptism, hmmm must be a reason, right?.[/quote]

Wrong. Continue reading Peter's writtings and you will see 1 Peter 3:21 [i][b]Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you[/b], not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,[/i]

But before you get to 1 Peter from Acts, you will see Paul state (Acts 22:16)
[i]And now why do you wait? Rise and [b]be baptized and wash away your sins,[/b] calling on his name.[/i]

Again Paul repeats baptism is a function of washing away of sins. I believe it just as he says it. Your man-made doctrine (starting around 1500AD) has Paul saying, "Repent and have faith which washes away your sins, then be baptized so that God knows you actually repented."

The reason you do not see this is because you are basing your doctrine on your interpretation of one verse and not all of scripture.

[quote name='son_of_angels' post='1094973' date='Oct 18 2006, 01:11 PM']
Ok, so someone here used the phrase "Sola Christus." That is an utter tragedy. If you're trying to say "by Christ alone," your only option is to use the form "Solo Christo" or even "Iesu Solo" (by Jesus alone). Thank you.
[/quote]

Ok Ok, Solo Christo. Learned something new... I am heartily sorry for having offended thee...

[Briguy]

Hi Gerald, you can be harsh with me, I can handle it
The "we" in 1 John very different and kind of a different subject but if read carefully the beginning "we" is those apostles and other disciples who were with Jesus. The "we" does change to include all of us at some point. Many would say about half way through chapt. 1. After reading it several times this morning I think now that the "we" does not chage until Chapt 2 where John uses the phrase Little children. This makes sense because there is a direct address to a certain group. Anyway, in Acts it is very different because a direct question is asked by a group of people and a direct answer is given. Think of a football team. It is the forth quarter and a team is down by 2 points. It is forth down and 2 yards to go and the team looks over at the coach and says, "what do we do? This answer would not apply to the fans or even the other team. It only applies to the we. Peter was adressing Isreal as just earlier he says something like, "Men of Isreal" and then goes on to this speech. Peter does not entrtain the idea of Gentiles entering the "church" until his vision many chapters later.

The foe idea is explained right in the verses I posted. Foe is mentioned and then right after in verse 36 it says that those "men of Isreal", who are the audience, cruciefied Jesus, who is the Lord. The in verse 37 the people are pricked to their heart, meaning it hit them very hard and the were afraid and said "What should we do? They were feeling horrible when they realized, as a peoples, what they had done. Peter then gives the misinterpreted phrase Repent and be baptized. Now, if you ask me you in the Catholic Church should embrace my interpretation because this verse clearly puts Baptism after Repentance, which goes against infant Baptism. Here i have helped your cause and you tell me i am wrong. Anyway, if i am right it helps one of your doctrines. If you are right it hurts, well crushes, one of your doctrines. Tell me something, either Gerald or Jswranch, is repentance usually mentioned with NT salvation?

Anyway, since your posts have so much in them i was wondering if you could do me a favor. Can you ask me one question at a time or post one set of verses at a time that we can discuss? That I can feel like I am answering everything that you have questioned me on. I will wait for your questions then, one at a time and we can discuss them each without running into other distractions. Thanks so much!

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian,

We've been round and round these circles before and you are stubornly in your error and see only that you are more entrenched in it. I see little point in wasting time with a debate with you. You are a blind guide, keeping people from the Holy Sacrament that brings people in to the body of Christ, baptism. You do not see scriptures with the spirit but with the mind of a man. All I can do is pray for you at this point. You can count on my prayers.

That someone who can repent can recieve baptism, does not force the conclusion that someone who is incapable of repenting cannot recieve baptism. Logical fallacy brian. Further an infant has NOTHING to repent of. But you will argue it anyway.

Blessings though

Edited October 19, 2006 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote] It is forth down and 2 yards to go and the team looks over at the coach and says, "what do we do? This answer would not apply to the fans or even the other team. It only applies to the we. Peter was adressing Isreal as just earlier he says something like, "Men of Isreal" and then goes on to this speech. Peter does not entrtain the idea of Gentiles entering the "church" until his vision many chapters later. [/quote]

Not to get in to a debate but this is silliness Brian. We are talking about different things when we are talking about the football team vs. God's plan of salvation and we are all a part of the plan and the words that Peter used for the Jews he would use for others as well. We are not all a part of the football team. God wants us to be a part of his team and there is ONE way to do it. Baptism which fills the new Christian with the Holy Spirit. For Jew and Gentile. Sad you cannot see this.