Are You A Born Again Child Of God?

[Mercy me]

Yes, I am a born again child of God. My baptism took it just took me a while to respond to it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093795' date='Oct 17 2006, 10:03 AM']
So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby.

If baptism worked this way, one could go to the public pool and baptize all the heathens and call them BORN AGAIN.

It just doesnt work that way, baptism is a public ordinance, that is to be done after being born again.
I dont agree.

How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own.

How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society....

I dont base my life on FEELINGS anymore but stand on the foundation of God's Word. There are biblical tests to know if one is saved or not. Once someone is a Christian they are done searching for what is missing.

Also I was not a church hopper as some have claimed. I was raised Catholic and UU for most of my young adult life, over 13 years......[returned to Catholic Church as I was leaving UU for very short time] before I was saved.
[/quote]
Baptism does not cease to be entrance into the kingdom just because you don't think it is.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' post='1093794' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:58 AM']Hi all, I have not posted for a while but when I saw this subject I knew I had to. Born again? = water Baptism?. Just not true. Jesus is the one who said "born again" and he was still physically alive. The water Baptism that Nic. would have known is the repentance Baptism that John was preaching. Believer water Baptism came later. Jesus was only speaking in the Spiritual sense, when he said "born again". When interpreting scripture you always start with a direct meaning. "Water" in John 3 here was referring to birth water, or the sack of fluid around a baby. If you have watched a birth it is easy to see where being born of water comes from. It is a flood of water that comes out before the baby. Jesus was simply referring to a natural birth and a spiritual birth. It was direct and meant what He said. He even follows it up with the concept of flesh coming from flesh and spirit from spirit. It is a physical and spirtual comparrison, we don't need to read more then that into it.

Paul did not promote water Baptism. In 1 Cor. he said he was glad he only Baptized a very few people. Odd words to say if water Baptism is the enactment of God's grace. Paul could not have been glad he did not water baptize if water Baptism was what you all say it is.[/quote]St. Paul [u]did[/u] promote Baptism. The context of [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians1.htm#v13"]1 Cor 1:13-17[/url] is clear that his desire was to avoid division among the Corinthians. He was concerned that if he personally baptized people, people would identify with the minister (i.e. St. Paul) instead of Jesus.

St. Paul speaks of the saving power of Baptism all over the place. Some quotes are:

[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans6.htm#v3"]Romans 6:3-4[/url]
[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians2.htm#v12"]Col 2:12[/url]
[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/titus/titus3.htm#v5"]Titus 3:5[/url]

St. Peter is even more clear about Baptism ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1peter/1peter3.htm#v21"]1 Pet 3:21[/url])[quote]This (i.e. the story of Noah's Ark) prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Plenty more info about Baptism here:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp[/url]

I hope you would be open to learning what the Early Church Fathers believed about being born again.

The distinction of being born again and Baptism is both non-Biblical and ahistorical.

[Winchester]

[quote] grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church.
[/quote]

Am I given to understand that once born again, a person loses free will?

That would be the only reasonable position I could draw from this question.

I explain the many people baptized who later become secularists in the same way I explain those who do not:

free will. (and in the case of those who maintain their Faith under the onslaught of evil and stupidity, Grace.)

[Dave]

[quote name='Briguy' post='1093794' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:58 AM']
Born again? = water Baptism?. Just not true. Jesus is the one who said "born again" and he was still physically alive. The water Baptism that Nic. would have known is the repentance Baptism that John was preaching. Believer water Baptism came later. Jesus was only speaking in the Spiritual sense, when he said "born again". When interpreting scripture you always start with a direct meaning. "Water" in John 3 here was referring to birth water, or the sack of fluid around a baby. If you have watched a birth it is easy to see where being born of water comes from. It is a flood of water that comes out before the baby. Jesus was simply referring to a natural birth and a spiritual birth. It was direct and meant what He said. He even follows it up with the concept of flesh coming from flesh and spirit from spirit. It is a physical and spirtual comparrison, we don't need to read more then that into it. [/quote]

Sorry, Briguy, but being born of water does NOT equal amniotic fluid. For one, the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in the Gospel of John clearly points towards baptism, and there is no evidence that the Greek word for water (hudor) represents amniotic fluid. If John had wished to show a dichotomy between water and the spirit, he would've said, "born of water and of the spirit," thus indicating two births. When John speaks of being born of water and the spirit, he mentions them as being a part of the same spiritual rebirth that takes place at baptism (Tit. 3:5). All of the early Christian writers understood John to be speaking in this way, and they unanimously agreed that John 3:5 referred to baptism.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM']
So you all believe you become born again at baptism?

I have had other Catholics tell me that.

I was given a Catholic baptism at the age of 10 days.

I know for a fact personally I was not born again. {so why did your baptisms "take" and mine didn't?} Given we were all babies, no personal responsiblity would have been part of this picture. What did we know? Was I a bad to the bones baby, and you all good babies?

I grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church.

I do not believe that infant baptism leads one to be born again, and it worries me for you all because it may make you think you are born again...when youre not. {I dont know for each individual here, thats for God to know}

There is such as thing as just KNOWING ABOUT Christ, and NOT KNOWING HIM...One cannot be saved by their parents beliefs. They can be taught, but I know if I had a child, they would need to enter into their own saving relationship with Christ, I could not do it for them. The problem is infant baptism almost teaches that the parents can do it for the baby.

I know the day and time I become born again and turned my life over to Christ, and the immediate changes it wrought.
[/quote]


Christ said you needed to be born of water and the Spirit to be born again. Guess what? I wasn't raised in a Christian household AT ALL and I still grew up praying to Jesus (we had a children's Bible, I went to Catholic school and my mom's family is very devoutly Protestant) I wasn't baptized till I was 14 years old and when I was, that was when I was oficially given to God, when I knew I would from that day forward be considered His daughter.

Even if you've been born again, Jesus still says you have to make the right choices. He said not all who called Him Lord, Lord would enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that whoever took care of others would in essence be taking care of Him.


Infant baptism does not say the parents do it for the baby, instead it is the parents entrusting their child over to God, for Him to take care of and watch over. In the Old Testament, the sign of the Covenant was circumcision and yes, they circumsised their babies and would even devote their first born sons to God. Baptism replaced circumcision but did Jesus say that we had to exclude children from the Covenant? On the contrary He said "Let the children come to me."

Even if someone becomes an agnostic, atheist, w/e as an adult, we cannot attribute that problem to infant baptism. Instead, it is the person who makes that choice and they will have to give an account to Jesus in the hereafter. God gave us free will and on the dawn of human existence He gave us a choice, to follow Him or not to follow Him. If someone chooses not to follow Him, that is their choice and unless they change their ways, it is they who are responsible for their own undoing.

[homeschoolmom]

If "born of water" meant actual, physical birth, then aborted babies cannot enter the kingdom of heaven bacause they are not actually "born." In fact, many of them are aborted before amniotic fluid begins to develop. We believe that there may be a baptism of desire in this case. What do you say happens to them?

[Katholikos]

Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends,

I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such.

[b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b]

Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles.

Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

Katholikos
ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist
Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1094378' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:45 PM']
Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends,

I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such.

[b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b]

Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles.

Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

Katholikos
ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist
Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote.
[/quote]

Katholikos!!!!!!!!!!!!

You probably don't remember me, I was just getting in as you were getting out...good to see you!

[Gadfly]

Budge Wrote,

[quote]The question of accepting or rejecting Christ must be settled in your heart. Whether you are a church-goer, give lots of money to charities, and do all kinds of religious works, it really doesn’t matter. What matters is—ARE YOU A BORN AGAIN CHILD OF GOD? No amount of religion or outward self-righteousness can help you on judgment day. Salvation is not found in a religion; but in a person, Jesus Christ. It’s simple! You are a sinner in need of a Savior. Stop trying to save yourself and decide to rely upon Jesus. Only Jesus paid for your sins, so only He alone can save! From your heart, simply ask Jesus to forgive your sins and become your Savior. Decide to rely upon Him alone to save your soul.[/quote]

While I wholeheartedly agree with your resounding condemnation of "religion", (C.S. Lewis pointed that out very well at the end of "Screwtape propuses a toast") don't you think good works might matter a little bit in light of Matthew 25, verses 31 through 46?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1094378' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:45 PM']
Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends,

I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such.

[b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b]

Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles.

Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

Katholikos
ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist
Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote.
[/quote]
Kath? our Katholikos!!!!
Amen I say rejoice!!!!!
TE DEUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tacos, so very tasty and good for you, and cheesecake party for everyone.
tears of joy to see your name old friend.

[Resurrexi]

I was baptised into the Christ's Bride and Mystical Body three weeks and four days after my birth.

[Briguy]

Katholikos, You didn't make much of an argument. In fact, you made no argument at all, just a statement with nothing behind it.

avamarie40, Your question is a fair one. When Jesus said "born of water" he was speaking to Nic., an adult. He was making a point to one person and we, the readers get to see the conversation unfold. The audience that the speaker or writer of a bible passage is dealing with is crucial in understanding what the scriptures mean. Sometimes we want to make everything in the Bible seem like it was spoken to us, in the year 2006. However, that is not the case and this passage was spoken in about 32 or 33 AD and written probly in 70-80AD. The point is Jesus was making a direct "point" and not writing a doctrinal statement. He was simply stating the obvious to a pharisee who had listening ears. Jesus is saying that we are all born in sin and need a second birth, one that is spiritual. So, the aborted child does not need to be born because to be created is enough. To be created in the womb is to have original sin condemnation. It just comes with being human. The aborted Baby is a baby at conception but Nic. would not have understood jesus if he had said conceived as knowledge of reproduction then was nothing like it is now. Jesus used the words that best fit who He was talking to and the point he was making. The truth here is that the adult needs to have a second birth to qualify for Heaven. The second birth includes "belief" as that is the driving point of John 3:16 that follows this conversation on the second birth. I could go on but think I will stop so you can respond

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1094378' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:45 PM']
Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends,

I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such.

[b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b]

Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles.

Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

Katholikos
ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist
Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote.
[/quote]


[quote name='Raphael' post='1094385' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:56 PM']
Katholikos!!!!!!!!!!!!

You probably don't remember me, I was just getting in as you were getting out...good to see you!
[/quote]


I am SO HAPPY to see you posting again old friend.
My response was the same as Raphael's. Im hopping in my seat!!!!!!!



It is sad that Budge has refused the grace given to her at her baptism. We should pray that one day her heart will not be hardened as stone, and she will allow that grace to lead her home.


Pax

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Briguy' post='1094698' date='Oct 18 2006, 09:29 AM']
Katholikos, You didn't make much of an argument. In fact, you made no argument at all, just a statement with nothing behind it.

avamarie40, Your question is a fair one. When Jesus said "born of water" he was speaking to Nic., an adult. He was making a point to one person and we, the readers get to see the conversation unfold. The audience that the speaker or writer of a bible passage is dealing with is crucial in understanding what the scriptures mean. Sometimes we want to make everything in the Bible seem like it was spoken to us, in the year 2006. However, that is not the case and this passage was spoken in about 32 or 33 AD and written probly in 70-80AD. The point is Jesus was making a direct "point" and not writing a doctrinal statement. He was simply stating the obvious to a pharisee who had listening ears. Jesus is saying that we are all born in sin and need a second birth, one that is spiritual. So, the aborted child does not need to be born because to be created is enough. To be created in the womb is to have original sin condemnation. It just comes with being human. The aborted Baby is a baby at conception but Nic. would not have understood jesus if he had said conceived as knowledge of reproduction then was nothing like it is now. Jesus used the words that best fit who He was talking to and the point he was making. The truth here is that the adult needs to have a second birth to qualify for Heaven. The second birth includes "belief" as that is the driving point of John 3:16 that follows this conversation on the second birth. I could go on but think I will stop so you can respond

In Love and Truth,
Brian
[/quote]

Brian, (good name) you're new here, so I will fill you in. Katholikos is a long time member of the phatmass family and has had his share of suffering, suffering more than I would imagine any human should suffer. We are always praying for him as a result. The fact that he is able to post a message, let alone "no argument" is more than enough.

God Bless

Fr. Brian