Are You A Born Again Child Of God?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM']I grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church.[/quote]The topic always has to return to Unitarian-Universalists...

In any event, the separation of "Born-Again" from "Baptized" is a modern invention. There is no early separation of the two concepts. The only defense I've seen of this separation is by those who talk about the baptism of St. John the Baptist (side note: just because he is "the Baptist" doesn't mean he founded the Baptist religion). Also, along with St. Paul, we Catholics don't believe in eternal security after being born again/Baptised (cf. [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]"Assurance of Salvation"[/url]). In reality, of course, Protestants don't believe in it, either. The Protestant loophole is that people who apostatize never were [i]truly[/i] saved, even though they thought that they were assured salvation when they "accepted Jesus".

Regarding the plagiarized rant against religion, I wonder how many names they would call an [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/acts/acts18.htm#v18"]early Church leader (link)[/url] who took the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10727a.htm"]Nazarite Vow[/url], ritually cutting his hair, etc. Would this name-calling against Nicodemus ("a very proud, vain, legalistic and hypocritical man...") be applied to his fellow Pharisee, St. Paul?


[quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM']There is such as thing as just KNOWING ABOUT Christ, and NOT KNOWING HIM...One cannot be saved by their parents beliefs. They can be taught, but I know if I had a child, they would need to enter into their own saving relationship with Christ, I could not do it for them. The problem is infant baptism almost teaches that the parents can do it for the baby. [/quote]This is like saying that we shouldn't teach people to have faith in Our Lord because "it almost teaches" that we are saved by our own choice, instead of the grace of God.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 12:20 PM']
So you all believe you become born again at baptism?

I have had other Catholics tell me that.

I was given a Catholic baptism at the age of 10 days.

I know for a fact personally I was not born again. {so why did your baptisms "take" and mine didn't?} Given we were all babies, no personal responsiblity would have been part of this picture. What did we know? Was I a bad to the bones baby, and you all good babies?

I grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church.

I do not believe that infant baptism leads one to be born again, and it worries me for you all because it may make you think you are born again...when youre not. {I dont know for each individual here, thats for God to know}

There is such as thing as just KNOWING ABOUT Christ, and NOT KNOWING HIM...One cannot be saved by their parents beliefs. They can be taught, but I know if I had a child, they would need to enter into their own saving relationship with Christ, I could not do it for them. The problem is infant baptism almost teaches that the parents can do it for the baby.

I know the day and time I become born again and turned my life over to Christ, and the immediate changes it wrought.
[/quote]Budge,
Your entire confusion is based on an mistaken and incomplete understanding of Grace.
We are given Faith by Grace, but if we don't take care of it, sins (weeds) will choke it out.
Where does it say in the Bible, "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

[KnightofChrist]

Did not Paul go and baptize entire houses and families? He would baptize "All of them that were in the house", now in most all cases families and houses have babies, and children, and Paul bapitized alot of familys and alot of houses. So it is very logical that Paul did indeed bapitize children, and babies, and if Paul can do it, so can the Church. But when Paul did baptize Holy Scripture says he would baptize "all" within the house, "all" not just the adults and teens, "all". All people within the familys and houses He baptized would include Adults, Teens, Childern, and infants. And Holy Scripture teaches us, that Paul baptized them all, and there is no need to specifically state age. Age was not a issue then, only until 1000 of yrs later did that become the case. Anyhow, scripture sayth "All," not some...

Also, remember

"The disciples rebuked them that brought the them (children). Whom when Jesus saw, he was much displeased, and saith to them: Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God. Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall not enter into it."

Can you see where Christ words can be applied to infant baptism? Baptism is how we come to Christ. Christ tells us directly not to forbid the children from coming to Him. And denying baptism to children is forbiding the children from Christ.

Edited October 16, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 12:20 PM']
I know the day and time I become born again and turned my life over to Christ, and the immediate changes it wrought.
[/quote]

Say you became severely mentally handicap, and forgot the day and time you became born again, and all the things you know of Christ, would you cease to be saved?

[CatholicCid]

Budge somewhat reminds me of a radio show I listened to once... I actually thought it was a satire for the first like 10 minutes, then realized the lady was serious...

She had been through 2 religions first... Born into one and left that. The next one she was with and got "saved" till she met her husband and she was "truly saved" and brought into his religion... He eventually became a pastor and they lived happily for 15 years... Then, it hit her! She wasn't saved
While she had found the right religion and had been living a good life in that religion for 15 years, she still hadn't truly accepted Jesus yet...
It was like a lightning strike when she realized clear as day that, even though she thought she knew Jesus, she was actually tricking herself.
So, she once again "found" Jesus and was finally saved...

The callers were fun with her... Asking what exactly was she those times before it when she thought she was "saved"?

So Budge, when you were almost a UU minister and all that, before becoming a Baptist... How did you feel? Did you feel "saved" then? Forget all the bias and such you have know and try to remember your honest feelings from back then.
How do you know, that say 1 year down the line, you won't realize you weren't really "saved" right now? That you were mistaken? And that you'll need to be "saved" again.
How do you suddenly know you're "saved" now?

Edited October 16, 2006 by CatholicCid

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM']
So you all believe you become born again at baptism?

I have had other Catholics tell me that.

I was given a Catholic baptism at the age of 10 days.

I know for a fact personally I was not born again. {so why did your baptisms "take" and mine didn't?} Given we were all babies, no personal responsiblity would have been part of this picture. What did we know? Was I a bad to the bones baby, and you all good babies?

I grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church.

I do not believe that infant baptism leads one to be born again, and it worries me for you all because it may make you think you are born again...when youre not. {I dont know for each individual here, thats for God to know}

There is such as thing as just KNOWING ABOUT Christ, and NOT KNOWING HIM...One cannot be saved by their parents beliefs. They can be taught, but I know if I had a child, they would need to enter into their own saving relationship with Christ, I could not do it for them. The problem is infant baptism almost teaches that the parents can do it for the baby.

I know the day and time I become born again and turned my life over to Christ, and the immediate changes it wrought.
[/quote]
I really doesn't matter your opinion of your baptism in the Catholic Church, it doesn't change that it happened and you have a chance at salvation because of it.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0012sbs.asp"]Can Infants be Born Again?[/url]

At baptism we enter into a loving, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Even though a baby isn't capable of understanding anything much, that relationship is still there. As I wrote in a thread that was suspiciously similar to this one, psychological tests have shown that very little babies show a distinct preference for their mothers' faces and voices over anyone else's. A four-day-old child can't understand the concept of motherhood on any meaningful level...but that doesn't mean he or she can't have a deeply intense, personal relationship with the mother.

[Briguy]

Hi all, I have not posted for a while but when I saw this subject I knew I had to. Born again? = water Baptism?. Just not true. Jesus is the one who said "born again" and he was still physically alive. The water Baptism that Nic. would have known is the repentance Baptism that John was preaching. Believer water Baptism came later. Jesus was only speaking in the Spiritual sense, when he said "born again". When interpreting scripture you always start with a direct meaning. "Water" in John 3 here was referring to birth water, or the sack of fluid around a baby. If you have watched a birth it is easy to see where being born of water comes from. It is a flood of water that comes out before the baby. Jesus was simply referring to a natural birth and a spiritual birth. It was direct and meant what He said. He even follows it up with the concept of flesh coming from flesh and spirit from spirit. It is a physical and spirtual comparrison, we don't need to read more then that into it.

Paul did not promote water Baptism. In 1 Cor. he said he was glad he only Baptized a very few people. Odd words to say if water Baptism is the enactment of God's grace. Paul could not have been glad he did not water baptize if water Baptism was what you all say it is.

more later,

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[Budge]

[quote]really doesn't matter your opinion of your baptism in the Catholic Church, it doesn't change that it happened and you have a chance at salvation because of it.[/quote]

So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby.

If baptism worked this way, one could go to the public pool and baptize all the heathens and call them BORN AGAIN.

It just doesnt work that way, baptism is a public ordinance, that is to be done after being born again.


[quote]
At baptism we enter into a loving, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Even though a baby isn't capable of understanding anything much, that relationship is still there. As I wrote in a thread that was suspiciously similar to this one, psychological tests have shown that very little babies show a distinct preference for their mothers' faces and voices over anyone else's. A four-day-old child can't understand the concept of motherhood on any meaningful level...but that doesn't mean he or she can't have a deeply intense, personal relationship with the mother.[/quote]

I dont agree.

How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own.

How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society....






[quote]
So Budge, when you were almost a UU minister and all that, before becoming a Baptist... How did you feel? Did you feel "saved" then? Forget all the bias and such you have know and try to remember your honest feelings from back then.
How do you know, that say 1 year down the line, you won't realize you weren't really "saved" right now? That you were mistaken? And that you'll need to be "saved" again.[/quote]

I dont base my life on FEELINGS anymore but stand on the foundation of God's Word. There are biblical tests to know if one is saved or not. Once someone is a Christian they are done searching for what is missing.

Also I was not a church hopper as some have claimed. I was raised Catholic and UU for most of my young adult life, over 13 years......[returned to Catholic Church as I was leaving UU for very short time] before I was saved.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Budge

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093795' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:03 AM']
So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby.

If baptism worked this way, one could go to the public pool and baptize all the heathens and call them BORN AGAIN.

It just doesnt work that way, baptism is a public ordinance, that is to be done after being born again.
I dont agree.

How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own.

How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society....

I dont base my life on FEELINGS anymore but stand on the foundation of God's Word. There are biblical tests to know if one is saved or not.
[/quote]Why do so many of those 'Dunked in the Water' baptists become backsliders after their baptism? Just because you got wet or was given faith, it doesn't mean you [b]maintain[/b] your relationship with God, does it, Budge? What are the 'Biblical Tests' that let one know if they're saved?

Edited October 17, 2006 by Anomaly

[Budge]

[quote]Why do so many of those 'Dunked in the Water' baptists become backsliders after their baptism? Just because you got wet or was given faith, it doesn't mean you maintain your relationship with God, does it, Budge?[/quote]

Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide.

Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093800' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:11 AM']
Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide.

Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did?
[/quote]
You're attitude is very non-biblical. Grace is given, but we can choose to reject it. You make excuses and profess falsehoods when you claim the Bible wasn't taught in Catholic schools. You were told about God and Jesus in Catholic Schools. That's grace right there. Why did you continually reject it until you were in your 30's. Your tale tells more about God's patience than anything else.

Jesus clearly tells us the gift of faith is like a seed being sown. That is what baptism does. It gives Grace, recieves the seed of faith by Grace, and prepares the soil by Grace. How you choose to ignore or abuse that gift of Grace is up to you, but your story, like mine, is a testimony to God's patience, not a testament to the inadequacies of religious actions.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093800' date='Oct 17 2006, 10:11 AM']
Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide.

Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did?
[/quote]
You did get born again. Unfortunately, since conversion is a continual process, it requires continued growth. Many parents and Catholic educators are failing in keeping up this continual growth. There are lots of parents who get their children baptized because "it's the thing to do" instead of "because I want my child to grow in a relationship with God." However, there are many other parents who do have the proper attitude and do take care to raise their children as Christians, and you see those children grow up and generally grow very faithful.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093800' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:11 AM']
Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide.

Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did?
[/quote]
Budge,
Obviously you have confused the patience and loyalty of God with the guarentee of Salvation. God's guarentee is that Grace will continually be offered, but Christians have to persevere to bring that Grace to fruition. It's not "Once Saved, Always Saved" it's "Grace is always offered and never refused" Paul speaks of this clearly.

Warning against Rejecting God's Grace
12 ¶ Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; Is. 35.3

13 and make straight paths for your feet, Prov. 4.26 lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 [b]looking diligently [u]lest any man fail of the grace of God[/u]; lest any root of bitterness Deut. 29.18 springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;[/b]
16 lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, [b]who for one morsel of meat sold his birthrigh[/b]t. Gen. 25.29-34

17 [b]For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears[/b]. Gen. 27.30-40

18 ¶ For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: Ex. 19.16-22 ; 20.18-21 · Deut. 4.11, 12 ; 5.22-27

20 ([b]for they could not endure that which was commanded[/b], And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: Ex. 19.12, 13

21 and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) Deut. 9.19
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Gen. 4.10

25 ¶ See that ye refuse not him that speaketh: for if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, Ex. 20.19 much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet [b]once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven[/b]. Hag. 2.6
27 [b]And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken[/b], as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, [b]let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably [/b] with reverence and godly fear:
29 for our God is a consuming fire. Deut. 4.24

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093795' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:03 AM']
So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby.

How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own.

How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society....
[/quote]

Tell us about the spiritual influence your parents had on you. When the had you baptized, they made a binding promise before God to raise you in Christianity. They were instructed and promised to teach you to follow Christ as you grew and to have faith. Did they live up to the promises they made?