Society Of Jesus

[Anna]

Actually I almost NEVER get angry on threads.

Nah, you just flame everyone else, then grin about it.

No one thread determines anything anyway. It is in longevity that credibility is established most of the time.

And in clarity of thought.

And accuracy. And cited documentation. (You know, the Ph.D materials we so dearly love. Grin.)

My *job* here on this site is to be the "Loyal Opposition" that is a fellow Christian who thinks that the Catholic Church is a pretty great organization, gone astray in some area's over time...

That would be fine, but you believe that the entire Catholic Church has gone astray, don't you?

My real LOVE in Catholic anti-apologetics, is not in scripture wars, but in the current PRACTICE of things. What gets done, what societies do, the politics, the power struggles, the finances. That sort of thing. That is where my interest lies most of the time.

I don't think apologetics really applies to practice of things, what gets done, what societies do, the politics, the power struggles, the finances, that sort of thing. So, to call it anti-apologetics is kind of a misnomer, imho. I'd maybe call it more like....judging. And ya know, there are plenty of protestant organizations out there with their own share of politics, power struggles, and financial scandals and woes...it's not exclusive to Catholic groups. The fact that it occurs is simply due to the fact that we are human beings, and humans fail, and humans sin. However, the Church itself is a Divinely instituted entity here on earth. WE FAIL THE CHURCH at times, but the Church does not fail us. Her teachings are Truth, from the mouth of Christ and from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus instituted the Church, and despite 2,000 years of us sinners blundering things within the Church, She still stands: the beautiful Bride of Christ.

Her teachings still stand, whether you or I choose to accept them, or reject them.

An apologist defends the Teachings of the Church.

I've yet to see you convincingly prove one her teachings wrong, which is what an anti-apologist would do.

So, that would actually make you, rather, a fault-finder, than an anti-apologist.

Just allow for those in opposition, to have some freedom to GO INTO why most Protestants call you a cult, hones [i don't, you know that, they do] and the charge of "cult" doesn't arise from history, doctrines so much, and proof texts. It is in the way the Catholic Church is seen in practice, that is where Protestants generally point fingers.

Have you ever heard the phrase, that when you point a finger at someone, you have three fingers (of your own) pointing back at yourself? Look at your hand. While the index finger is pointing away from you, the middle, ring, and pinky are pointing inward. I find that rather profound. Perhaps you would be willing to share that with those protestant finger-pointers to whom you refer.

And that is where you need some help in your apologetics work.

And that is how I think you might improve your debating tactics.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited January 13, 2004 by Anna

[Bruce S]

That would be fine, but you believe that the entire Catholic Church has gone astray, don't you?

Yes I do, sadly, on so many of it's "distinctives" they place emphesis and time on extraneous elements.

I don't think apologetics really applies to practice of things, what gets done, what societies do, the politics, the power struggles, the finances, that sort of thing. So, to call it anti-apologetics is kind of a misnomer, imho.

Current PRACTICE is reality. What people DO counts for everything, documentation, and position papers count for squat.

And ya know, there are plenty of protestant organizations out there with their own share of politics, power struggles, and financial scandals and woes...it's not exclusive to Catholic groups.

Absolutely. I take OUR OWN guys on all the time for that, if that counts for anything.

WE FAIL THE CHURCH at times, but the Church does not fail us.

Your church is one based upon leadership, so called divinely appointed, absolute leaders. When those leaders fail, it is not "we" it is the chruch, by definition, since they are the ones that try to tell you they have the answers. Protestants don't look to authority from men, but from scripture. We expect our leaders to mess up, they do, but since there isn't one man made doctrine we have to subscribe to implicitly, our leadership, our denominations, don't have that burden of responsibility that the Catholic Church leadership has assumed for itself.

Jesus instituted the Church, and despite 2,000 years of us sinners blundering things within the Church, She still stands: the beautiful Bride of Christ.

Yep. She does. Called Christianity. Not your exclusive claim to be THE church. Sorry, we have a completely different understanding here.

Edited January 13, 2004 by Bruce S

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Please stop arguing with this guy. He is NOT debating anything.

[Bruce S]

Please stop arguing with this guy. He is NOT debating anything.

Sorry you don't like to look at practice.

Debate is discussion. Not slavish agreement. Slavish agreement seems to be the preferred style here, I'm not built that way.

Proof texts, saying we do THIS, when clearly, THAT is shown to be done, is upsetting I know, but I keep telling you guys. MOST of the world of Protestantism considers the Roman church to be almost a "cult"

I don't. But it is PRACTICE that raises these unfair charges, it is what is DONE, not what is theoretically doctrinal that the world sees, looks at, and reacts to.

So, I raise those distinctives.

You have others that are scripture warriors like Circle, but frankly, even he is frustrated beyond all belief at this forum. It is like debating a brick wall. Absolute, total, agreement with EVERYONE on the other side terrified to move outside of doctrine into practice.

Why that great fear? I honest don't understand it.

I'm comfortable talking about OUR crazies, our scammers, our guys doing money grabs?

Why not open it up as a two way street? Go look at the thread I stared on Killing off Protestantism. I stayed off it intentionally after starting it, but look! If you want to see denominational bigotry, it reeks all over that thread.

You do NOT get that in a Protestant denomination. With rare, rare exceptions, they believe that they are right.....BUT don't have all the answers, and continue to look to scripture and prayer and insight from God. Not "Mother Church" and here fallible/infallible/everchanging leadership and doctrines.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Bruce

Debate the Society of Jesus or GET OFF THIS THREAD.

[BLAZEr]

I love that you think we operate out of some great fear. And you have some great points, but I don't think you see the authentic desire most people have on this phorum to know the Truth more fully.

One of the realities of the religious quest is the knowledge that the Mystery is never completely knowable. We realize this. However, one of the differences between religion (which is the attempt to know and understand the Mystery) and Faith, which is the belief that the Mystery has been made incarnate, is that you have to believe the Mystery was made incarnate Somewhere, in Someone. That's Jesus Christ for us. And he continues to be made incarnate by the Church. For us the Church is not some amorphous body of people who happen to believe in Jesus. For us the Church is very much a Mother, an incarnate reality that his definable. We believe that the revelation, the Mystery made incarnate, continues to be made incarnate in the Church.

What you fail to understand is how the Church understands that revelation (The Mystery made incarnate) and how she continues to teach how we are to understand that revelation with authority.

You and Circle are banging your heads not because we aren't listening, but rather because it has probably not been in either of your experiences that you encounter Catholics who are do not fall silent at your "tight" little arguments.

You bang your heads because we are unwilling to admit that the Church has ever been in error. But the problem is that you are unwilling to understand why we would make this claim. It's not because we are somehow afraid that the whole thing will fall apart.

The difficulty arises in the fact that you can only see Her for what she is with eyes of faith. You, Bruce, are in fact, faithless when it comes to the Church. It's not your fault, and you wouldn't even claim this to be a problem. But quite frankly, for most of us it would be easier to deny the truth of the scriptures than the truth of the Church. Only because we recognize that the Church gave the world the Scriptures.

The Church came First. And if all books ceased to exist and only people existed, the Church would continue. The Church does not require a bible, but the bible does require a church. The Bible makes no sense apart from a community of believers. We aren't Muslims. We don't believe that Jesus came to establish a book. We believe that Jesus came to establish a Church, and we my friend, are Her.

However, in case you haven't noticed, we get nowhere in talking about this because you are unwilling to set aside what seems to be your paradigm "The Catholic Church needs to realize she is not the only way to be a Church." And actually, we can admit this. The Catholic Church is not the only way to be a church, however it is the only way to be Christ's Church.

I know this is radical. I know its hard for you to stomach. But if you understand this point, you can see much better where we are coming from in our discussion.

For us it's not about "power structures" its not about "politics." These in fact exists, but they are not what the Church is about. I know that to you this statement might seem absurd, but from the inside from within the Church's heart, it's all about Christ. It's all about Truth. It's all about Justice. It's all about Beauty. It's all about love.

Yes, it's all about Love. Even our desire to help the Truth be evident to you, even when we dont' do it in the nicest and friendliest way, is about love. Because if we didn't have love on our hearts, we wouldn't even bother having Phatmass. We wouldn't bother having debates. We wouldn't bother with you. We would ban you in a heart beat. No, the desire for someone to know the truth is probably the most loving act one can offer outside of complete self-sacrifice.

[PedroX]

While I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories, I do think many of the Jesuits have lost their way. I think the roots are found in the Liberation Theology movement of the 70's which went hand in hand (in many cases) with disobedience of ecclesial authorities. Since this theological issues was largely put down, the Jesuits have wandered a bit. I looked for a bit at joining the order but I wanted more than just dedication to righting social wrongs. I wanted Jeremy Irons in The Mission. However, Avery Cardinal Dulles is S.J. and he's a stud.

peace...

[Bruce S]

Edited January 13, 2004 by Bruce S

[BLAZEr]

Hmm, you respond with insults. Very Christian.

[jasJis]

Exactly. To YOU ... truth resides totally within denomination. Your denomination determines what you are, believe, and do. Denominational bias in the extreme. We generally don't look to any particular denomination for the basic truth, to us, traditon MUST point to scripture, and there is much in the Catholic Church PRACTICE, and I emphasise practice here, that is based soley on Tradition. And those TRADITIONS are under constant and continuing evolvement and elaboration.

Bruce. If the Catholic Church spoke the TRUTH, would you hear it? You say you don't dislike the Catholic Church, but I haven't seen a sincere post from you where you spell it out?

I know I'm not the brightest lightbulb, so please help me out.

Is it correct for 'Bruce' to say: "The Catholic Church cannot teach any TRUTH because you see error in practice?"

[Bruce S]

Bruce. If the Catholic Church spoke the TRUTH, would you hear it? You say you don't dislike the Catholic Church, but I haven't seen a sincere post from you where you spell it out?

Out of respect for the SINCERE ... honest Catholics here, I tread lightly on what I post.

So, I try to engage on threads of interest, and stay away from really hard core objections, they can be found around the nets.

MOST of them regard PRACTICE, not position papers, and proof texed pre-written term exams.

Believe it or not, I'm nice here....grin.

[Anna]

Bruce is looking for an Church full of perfect people and perfect practices!

Lots of fun searching, Bruce!

Is the Catholic Church the Church which Christ founded? Yes. Did He promise the gates of hell would not prevail against it? Yes. Did He promise we'd all be perfect in everything we think, do, and say once we've joined?........

You've missed the mark, you've fallen overboard. You've been so busy finding fault that you've lost the Truth.

Wake up, man!

pax Christi. <><

[jasJis]

Bruce,

You did not answer my direct and simple question.

[Bruce S]

Is it correct for 'Bruce' to say: "The Catholic Church cannot teach any TRUTH because you see error in practice?"

Nope. Strawman again.

How MANY times have I stated I watch EWTN nightly, love people on the network, learn tremendous things?

I see truth, AND error.

I tune out the Marianian aspects, too elevated for my taste, I laugh at some of the apparitions that are validated, I LOVE the doctrine about life and it's sanctity. I HATE "Coming Home" the most bigoted religous show on TV. And Mother is a hoot.

See.

Balance. Filtering out the worthwhile from the dross.

[BLAZEr]

So you follow the religion of Bruce . . .

Maybe Bruce Almighty? :P