Society Of Jesus

[M.SIGGA]

In a few posts I've heard that some folks on Pm are not big fans of the Jesuit order. This sort of bothers me. I personally like them, not some of the radicals in South America, but I generally like that they stand for education. In the past, the Spanish and Portuguese Jesuits are responsible for bringing the Gospel to much of the pagan world. The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola are amesome too. I hope this dislike isn't from those wierd Jesuit/government conspiracy theories that make no sense. There are a few wackos, but what order doesn't have a few of those anyway?

[BLAZEr]

The Jesuits deserve to be made fun of at every opportunity!

But I love them. They have a lot of problems generally in their order, but man there is nothing in the world, nothing, like a Good Jesuit. Seriously this is the Order that saved Catholicism from the Protestant Heresy. This is the Order Jack Chick despises. This is the Order that used to (shame they don't anymore) take a 4th solemn vow of direct and filial obedience to the Vicar of Christ. That meant that the Pope could tell any Jesuit where to go and they were marching . . . they took it as seriously as their Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience.

Fr. Brian Daley, Fr. Dan Barfield, Fr. Joe Fessio, Fr. John Hardon, Fr. Kenneth Baker, Fr. Mitch Pacwa . . . I salute you Holy Gentleman!!

AMDG

[BLAZEr]

This is from Domenico Bettenelli's blog . . . thought you might like it M.Sigga:

The Ents awaken

A friend told me a story last night that I want to share. It seems he and his wife were asked to give a talk to a group of elderly, retired Jesuits. These are all highly educated men of the Greatest Generation. And while they are solidly orthodox, they have been put on the shelf by those of the following generation--mostly Boomers--who are, shall we say, less orthodox. My friends spoke to the priests about the younger generations, how people in their 30s tend to be more orthodox their immediate predecessors and people in their teens and 20s are even more thirsty for truth and solid ground and ancient wonders. And they said that the younger the crowd, the more hungry for "solid food" they were.

Well, this got the elderly priests all fired up. They were so excited to learn that there are those who want what they have to offer. They had been led to believe by their confreres in the Society that their brand of faith was passe, that their time had passed. My friends told the priests that they even though they're retired, they haven't stopped being priests. They told them it's not enough just to sit in their home and pray for renewal, but that those who could do so should go out there and make it happen.

One priest approached my friends after the talk and told them that he had been asked to be a chaplain at a women's college. When he showed up, he was asked by an administrator not to wear his college because it would intimidate the women. The poor man, not wanting to offend, agreed, but now he asked my friend whether he did the right thing. My friend told him that as a priest, it is his right to wear the collar. In fact, it's his duty to be a witness to the office of the priesthood. The collar does not symbolize power, it symbolizes service. It is a sign of the priest who acts "in persona Christi", who brings Christ to others in a special way. It is a sign of the presence of the Church. Incidentally, this is why clergy sexual abuse is horrific and why it is so important to prevent an abuser from being able to wear his collar any more.

Anyway, as my friend related his story to me he said the whole thing reminded him of the scene in The Two Towers in which the Ents--ancient and powerful beings who thought the world has passed them by--were awoken and told they were relevant, that the "war" had come to them whether they liked it or not. And the Ents were roused to action and marched forth.

I thought this was a great story that illustrates that hope is never lost, even in an institution that seems as corrupt as the Society of Jesus. Among those who have stripped it of its meaning and mission, there are the few, the young scholastics, the middle-aged, and the elderly who maintain the spark. As much as we whitewash the whole order, there are some great priests and brothers within, and they just have to realize they are stronger than those who have told them they are weak and passe.

[Ellenita]

How many different religious orders are there and are there major differences between them? How can you tell who is a member of which order?

[BLAZEr]

There are tons of orders! Probably over 1,000. You can find most of the larger orders here: http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/abbrev.htm

You can tell some religoius orders apart by the habits they wear: Franciscans in brown or gray tunics, Dominicans in white with rosaries around their waists and black preaching capes, Trinitarians in white with a blue and red cross on their chest . . .

But mostly you can't really tell unless they write down their names, and you know what the little letters mean: S.J. (Society of Jesus, the Jesuits) OFM (Order of Friars Minor, the Franciscans) O.P. (Order of Preachers, the Dominicans) CSC (Congretation of the Holy Cross (Sancta Cruce).

The link above and here http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/abbrev.htm will explain most of the abbreviations . . .

[Ellenita]

Thanks Blazer! :D I didn't realise there was so many!

So are they mostly formed as a result of people wanting to ascribe to the way a particular saint lived their life? Does the pope have to 'give permission' for an order to come into existance?

[BLAZEr]

Most orders spring up because there is a particular need. For instance, the Sister of Life in New York were formed because Cardinal O'Connor recognized the need to have women consecrated for the specific purpose of ending abortion. http://www.sistersoflife.org/

Likewise the Franciscan Daughters of Mary http://www.rosegardenhome.org/fdm.html are a community that was formed to help end abortion through a particular Franciscan spiritual life.

And of course you are familiar probably with the Missionaries of Charity which were founded by Mother Teresa. They sprung up because Mother heard Christ calling her to serve the poorest of the poor. Mother became a saint because she followed this vocation. Women entered the order because its life was inspiring, and Mother was inspiring.

So, most orders spring up becasuse there is a particular need.

Most religious orders begin their formation through a diocese. A local Bishop is responsible for them and their work is usually limited to one diocese at first. However, as the order starts to grow and desires to work in more than one diocese, they must begin to seek Papal approval for their way of life. A religous order that has Papal approval is called a Religious Institute of Pontifical Right. There are religious institutes of Diocesan Right too . . . the Sisters of Life are such a community. The Franciscan Daughters of Mary are an even younger community whose formation is in an even earlier stage.

[Bruce S]

Is this going to be a really open discussion, or another one where orthodoxy is a requirement? I tried to get into the POLITICS of Vatican religous orders in another thread, but it went "poof" when we got things going... I highly suspect that these orders cannot be discussed outside the frame of the good that they have done.

The world of politics and power struggles, is something I have been "into" for over twenty years now.

If you really want this thread to be a lively one on the Jesuits, the in's-out's and such, let me know, and I'm game.

If this is scheduled to be heavily monitored to keep the discussion "in the box" I'm not, so I'm asking management now, before I start, since doing the "Jesuit discussion" will be a lot of work on my end.

this is the Order that saved Catholicism from the Protestant Heresy. This is the Order [hard core XXX anti-catholic] despises.

Indeed, that is so. But what have Jesuits done, what actions, what infiltrations, what policies...

In fact, they are so controversial, they have actually been tossed out of the special position they had in the Catholic Church from time to time, disbanded, and rebanded.

So, are we game here?

Edited January 12, 2004 by Bruce S

[Kilroy the Ninja]

"Heavily monitored"? "In the box"?

See Bruce it's phrases like this that turn people off to you.

If you want this thread to get into a true debate about the Jesuits then say what you want to say and back away while we answer. But don't sit there and bait and see if we're going to "let" you do it.

[Bruce S]

My thead on Opus Dei went "poof"

I'm not tossing out unsubstantiated words here.

This is a GREAT topic, one that could produce wonderful debate.

Did you read the OD thread?

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Yes I've read it, I was reading it when it was here and now I've read it in the Back Alley, and I'm not sure why it's there but what's done is done.

If you want to debate the Jesuits go ahead and try to do it. If no one wants to debate you, leave it alone. Baiting fellow Christians is a productive way to interdialogue.

[Bruce S]

Yes I've read it, I was reading it when it was here and now I've read it in the Back Alley, and I'm not sure why it's there but what's done is done.

Since I don't have access to that forum, for me, it is gone.

If you want to debate the Jesuits go ahead and try to do it. If no one wants to debate you, leave it alone. Baiting fellow Christians is a productive way to interdialogue.

There are controversies, to me they are interesting. I would assume that Catholics would want other perspectives to consider...

Edited January 12, 2004 by Bruce S

[Ellenita]

disbanded and rebanded

An order can cease to exist? What happens to the people who are still in the order or who refuse to accept it has been disbanded? Are they excommunicated?

most orders spring up because there is a particular need.

So if that need is percieved as being completely addressed would the order then cease to exist?

I personally like them, not some of the radicals in South America

Is the 'problem' with the Jesuits because they are linked with Liberation Theology?

[Mary's Knight, La]

bruce,

i'm not in an admin position so an admin can over-rule me here if debate table policies dictate to do so

but i'm inviting you to say what you have to say because it'll be interesting reading but also post what sources you can because as has been noted before sources make a difference in credibility

personally i think they are/were great, now they have a stigma of being less than completely orthodox which no doubt certain members of the order have deserved but their original purpos when combined with their original mission makes them my second fav order, gotta give props to the benedictines who follow the original rule of St. Benedict.

for sigga:

no it's not conspiracy theorists unfortunately in their zeal to bring souls into the true church they have sometimes tried to soften the blow and compromised their orthodoxy and building off that you can find some jesuits saying things that are way way out there but just imagine a completely orthodox priest/brother dedicated to teaching the truths of the catholic church so as to combat heresy and falsehood (sorta redundant oh well)

some of you will probably say i am being overly generous in my position on the jesuits, maybe i am but i don't think *most* are purposely trying to teach falsehoods

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Just a note, the so-called Jesuit Oath with all that stuff about damning other religions is a fabrication.

I like the Jesuits, I go to one of their schools, and I know a lot about them. The story of their founder, St. Ignatius of Loyola, is a truly inspiring one.