Observations

[mulls]

i'm going to steal Hyper's model for a moment.

Catholics' battle cry: "If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, you gotta go straight to the source, and ask Catholics and read Catholic sources, not anti-catholic, protestant biased sources!"

Non-Catholic: "OK. That's why we are here, but while we're at it, it seems that y'all have some misconceptions about what protestants do as well, so let's try to clear those up too, ok?"

Catholic: "No. I don't care how you justify it, but...

the protestant altar call is this..... (negative, incorrect remark)

Protestant baptism is this..... (negative, incorrect remark)

Protestant worship is this..... (negative, incorrect remark)

Protestant preachers are this..... (negative, incorrect remark)

Protestant communion is this..... (negative, incorrect remark)

Protestants think denominations are..... (negative, incorrect remark)

The Protestant bible is..... (negative, incorrect remark)

Protestants falsely deny this..... (negative, incorrect remark)

Protestants falsely accept this..... (negative, incorrect remark)"

i think my point is clear.

as catholics, you don't really care what my own opinions of catholicism are, right? you want me to take it for what its worth, for what it really teaches, right?

well, i believe i've done a solid job of learning and discerning what catholicism really teaches, and what it doesn't.

all i ask is for the same respect when I (we) explain certain things to you. I don't care what you think of them personally, I just want you to know what it truly means to us, what it truly teaches, whether you agree or not. I don't agree with catholicism, but I don't exaggerate about it or spread lies or false information about it. I let my opinions be known, but I make sure people know that they are only my opinions, and nothing else.

So please be respectful, when we explain something, please take it into consideration. Please do us the honor of asking yourself "why is this important to them, how does it affect their relationship with Jesus, and why?" do not condemn, do not exaggerate, do not blatantly misrepresent what we're trying to explain, for the sake of proving catholicism right.

Catholicism is right to you, and I understand that. Try to understand what is true to me (us, and millions of other people).

Not too much to ask, is it?

to put it ultra-simply:

you don't want us to tell you what you believe, so don't tell us what we believe.

Edited January 12, 2004 by mulls

[M.SIGGA]

I think a big prob here is that the few Protestants on the board are having to answer for all of Protestantism, and Protestantism is different depending on whose theo/doctrines you accept/reject/promote/etc. Other than what one's own denomination teaches, I find it hard personally to learn anything b/c everything and everyone's personal interpretation is very very different. Lutherans, AoG, Baptists, etc. are all very similar in some ways, but in other ways they are closer to Catholicism than each other. I think a lot of Prots sort of stick together on Pm, but offline these denominations do not agree with each other and they a lot of times believe certain reformers/denominations are just as lost as Catholics. I think a whole lot of mis-information goes on and that is something that needs to be addressed further.

In fairness, not everyone is as charitable as you (mulls).

[mulls]

fair enough.

i would bet that any 'born-again, evangelical Christian' would pretty much be on the same page however.

even if learning does not permit itself, that is no reason to irrationaly represent what somebody else believes, based on their own opinions/biases. that's my main point.

(thanks for the compliment Sigga)

[phatcatholic]

just a side note: how did this topic get pinned?

i agree w/ sigga......mulls, u have to agree that it's practically impossible to summarize the "Protestant" position b/c their are so many protestant positions! we are forced to speak in generalities for the sake of clarity and brevity. if we had to go down the list of protestant denominations and say what each one believed everytime we talked about, for example, Protestant salvation--our posts would turn into novels and we'd be here all night!

so, u gotta give us a little leeway (sp?) here. no matter how we state the protestant position, there's always going to be a protestant out there who doesn't personally agree w/ that. so, this dilemma is unavoidable. if we state the protestant position and it is not how YOU see it, then just let us know. i'm sure everyone here will try their best to be more specific.

see where we're coming from now? i hope this clears things up.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[mulls]

again, i think any born-again, evangelical would be on the same page as the next.

i'll repeat this for the sake of repitition:

even if learning does not permit itself, that is no reason to irrationaly represent what somebody else believes, based on their own opinions/biases

[mulls]

thanks for the input by the way.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Interestingly enough many of the so-called "wrong" views about protestants being posted by Catholics are coming from ex-protestants who have converted to Catholicism. Perhaps because there are soooo many different denoms out there they are soooo many different ways of being a protestant and soooo many different ways of viewing it. I refuse to accept that most of what we're seeing here at Phatmass about protestants is incorrect.

I myself am a cradle Catholic. However, I grew up with Baptists. My best friends were Baptist, I went with them to Baptist Wednesday night serves, I went to their shut-in's and the Vacation Bible Schools - every summer - and even to the Baptist Bible Camp in the summer. So far I have yet to find anything wrong with how Baptists have been described on this board.

So go ahead and tell I just don't know because I'm not one, but I beg to differ. For tens years I was a better Baptist (at least showing up for the services) than most who were born into it. And I still went to Mass every Sunday.

Bottom line, there are far too many protestants out there to make too many generalizations, and by the same token there are far too many out there to tell us that we're totally wrong.

[hyperdulia again]

i pinned it

[Donna]

Good point, Ninja.

Mulls, I speak from where I have been.

Should people name their list (TBN, MCC, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc)?

[hyperdulia again]

Metropolitan Community Church(standard mainline Protestant Theology, divergent on Sexual Morality) and Episcopal Church (*Almost* Catholic). Oh Free Catholic Church(Valid Sacraments, Apostolic Succession, too tolerant of theological dissent, Sexually DIvergent).

[mulls]

and remember that I am a cradle Catholic.

does that give me the right to tell people what Catholicism truly teaches, based soley on my experience?

No.

at least that's what everyone here has told me, which i have come to accept and agree with.

let's not be hypocritical.

that's my biggest problem, people think they know what they're talking about just because they've "been there." they are clearly, clearly wrong (EDIT: wrong on certain topics), especially when speaking for ALL PROTESTANTS, and maybe even their own denomination.

if they want to say "this is what my church taught me," or "this is what my family taught me," then that's fine.

but don't speak for the majority.

i sure don't, in respect to catholicism.

i think all my points here are fair, no?

Thank you Hyper.

Edited January 12, 2004 by mulls

[M.SIGGA]

Personally I think the Protestant experience is very personal to every Protestant especially in the case of those who identify as Evangelical. An aray of different Protestant doctrines and ideas seem to be accepted by different people. Do you think debates should soley talk about doctrine and not personal experience - do you see how hard this might be? I was a Craddle Catholic, went to an Evangelical private school run by the Southern Baptist Convention for 8 yrs before converting to a non-denom church while in a Catholic high school. It's personally not my style to take cheap shots, but I'm not on a personal mission to convert anybody either. I went to VBS all those years with friends and I recieved Bible instruction for 8 yrs from a Baptist Minister and almost all I know about Protestantism comes from those experiences - and from reading books too. What is your solution to the problem and how can there be a civil debate if personal experience can't play a role?

[mulls]

Sigga,

again this is the problem:

even if learning does not permit itself, that is no reason to irrationaly represent what somebody else believes, based on their own opinions/biases.

if everyone agrees that the protestant experience is highly personal (which i also agree on), than everybody SHOULD STOP SPEAKING FOR THE MAJORITY OF PROTESTANTS WHEN THEY MAKE THEIR CLAIMS. certain people are more guilty of this than others.

if there is a certain belief or doctrine you were taught, say so, and be very, very specific as to who taught it to you, and how widely held the belief is/was, and how important it was to SALVATION, or the RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST which most evangelicals would probably agree are the most important things in their spiritual lives. (notice i said "most" and "probably").

be careful not to misrepresent ALL non-catholics to somebody out there who may not know the difference.

i'm sorry for shouting, i just hope my point gets across.

Edited January 12, 2004 by mulls

[mulls]

oh and the general negative attitude that is conveyed when speaking about all things non-catholic (especially in debate) generally smells of elderberries, relating back to the original post.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Well then, if we're all supposed to be careful now and add the "in my experience" tagline then I would hope that people would start to cite their information with clarity and precision - not just some quote from who-knows-where. Being able to research someone's base of information is important for credibility. Certainly college-educated people know better than to just throw information out there from some nebulous source. High school educated people know better than that.

So please people, cite your sources!