Salvation Of Non-christians

[jesussaves]

For non-Catholics, where does the bible say that if you are not Christian, you will be damned?

If all you can find is that you are saved by your faith in Jesus, how does that imply you will be damned with your lack of faith?

If all you can find is that if you proactively reject Jesus you will be damned, how does that mean if you haven't known to decide etc that you will be damned?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

Sin separates us from a relationship with God. Ephesians 2:3 - by nature we are children of wrath. Nothing unclean can enter into heaven, and thus we need to be saved. The reality of hell is spoken of in the Bible, and there will be those who go there even though that is not God's desire. There is the possibility that a non-Christian could be saved by knowing God through natural reason, even if he does not know the name of Jesus.

[RC_]

A just and loving God would not let someone go to Hell because they had merely not been told of Jesus, or have had a bad expirence with those who claim to do His work.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='RC_' post='1089968' date='Oct 12 2006, 01:46 PM']
A just and loving God would not let someone go to Hell because they had merely not been told of Jesus, or have had a bad expirence with those who claim to do His work.
[/quote]


Perhaps not... God's love and grace is no guarantee of salvation outside the Church. We know that if we obey Christ, and remain in Him and with Him untill the end we can be saved.

We do and can NOT know if someone that does not know of Christ will have salvation, or will not. We can not say God would or would not send such people to hell, because we do not know. We can only leave that up with God, because it is up to God, not us. We can not put our human understanding of Love and Justice on God. God can send such people to hell and God would remain a perectly loving and just God.

God is God, and we are not.

We know we can be saved inside the Church because we have the light, outside salvation in the darkness can be a mystery, we can only leave that up to God.

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1089980' date='Oct 12 2006, 03:10 PM']
Perhaps not... God's love and grace is no guarantee of salvation outside the Church. We know that if we obey Christ, and remain in Him and with Him untill the end we can be saved.

We do and can NOT know if someone that does not know of Christ will have salvation, or will not. We can not say God would or would not send such people to hell, because we do not know. We can only leave that up with God, because it is up to God, not us. We can not put our human understanding of Love and Justice on God. God can send such people to hell and God would remain a perectly loving and just God.

God is God, and we are not.

We know we can be saved inside the Church because we have the light, outside salvation in the darkness can be a mystery, we can only leave that up to God.
[/quote]

Agreed.

Note with the sin of adam we have all sinned and damnation is our just punishment.

[jesussaves]

Any there any other non-Catholics who want to reply?

[onlygrace08]

One of the "requirements" for a mortal sin is that one knows that he/she is doing something wrong. This probably applies to salvation as well. If one has never heard of God, how can they knowingly reject Him? Then, how could they be damned? However, like someone said before, we can't actually know for sure.

God Bless

Anna

[KnightofChrist]

Church teaching, as I understand, also teaches that knowing right from wrong is "built into" our nature. So people unless they are mentaly handycap, know when they do something wrong.

Why teach salvation to people that do not know Christ, if they do not have something to be saved from? And when we teach salvation what do we believe we will saved from? Hell, and damnation, right? Yes.

God can save the people whom do not know Him, but will He? Reading the Holy Bible would lead me to believe that there is a great chance He will not, and Mother Church teaches there is no salvation outside the church, and leave it up to God.

Clearly The Bible and Mother Church teach that souls that do not know God, need to be rescued, saved, given salvation. What will they need salvation of, saved or rescued from? Hell and eternal damnation.

It is our Holy Duty as Christians to teach and preach the gospel. The souls of the people who do not know God, I believe, greatly depend on our willingness to teach and preach Christ.

Saving non-christians from the fires of hell is why we must preach and teach the Truth of Christ' salvation within His one True Church. I do believe, it would be better for us all to asume that people that do not believe will be beaver dam if they do not find Christ, and we will be punished by God if we do not obey our Holy Duty to teach Christ to them that do not know Him.

The opposite just seems to be problematic, if one can go to heaven without having been taught salvation, why teach salvation, and if one does not have to teach salvation, why have a Church, or a Christian Faith?

Yet still its probably best to keep in the backs of our minds, leave such matters up to God, He will choose, and whatever it is, it will be Justice, Love, and Right.

Edited October 16, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

I'm pretty sure things are a little more simple than we want to believe.
Humanity suffers from the effects of the Original Sin, we did not commit the Original Sin.
Sin is separation from God. Humanity was close to God and it was our right to live in Eden with God. Adam and Eve sinned by putting what they wanted above their relationship with God. Their just punishment (exile from Eden) got us all banished and put a certain separation between all humanity and God.
Since we're slightly seperatated from God, we need grace to improve that. A & E's sin screwed things up for us all into the future, God provided an eternal opportunity for Grace through Jesus for us all.

Babies are baptised soley for the gift of Grace which we don't have to 'earn' with faith. It's the Grace that is the seed of faith and the source of future graces. Babies aren't in dire need of grace like we are yet, but have 1 strike against them because of the effects A & E's sin.

Babies haven't sinned, but don't enjoy a perfect relationship with God. We start out with a damaged relationship and find ways to go downhill from there as we get older and smarter. We aren't 'corrupt dung heaps', but we aren't perfect either. Salvation is taught simply to teach about Grace, offer Grace, and show why we need Grace.

Think of it this way. If Adam and Eve who had every Grace imagined as a right of their humanity while they lived in Eden and only had to not eat the 'apple' and they screwed up, what about you and I, living outside of Eden, in a screwed up and corrupted world with all kinds of temptations, etc.?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1092854' date='Oct 16 2006, 10:10 AM']
A & E's sin screwed things up for us all into the future
[/quote]
Despite the sin, you've got to love Biography...and the new fall line-up...priceless...

[homeschoolmom]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1092857' date='Oct 16 2006, 08:15 AM'] [quote]A & E's sin screwed things up for us all into the future[/quote]Despite the sin, you've got to love Biography...and the new fall line-up...priceless...
[/quote]
I put a good amount of effort and thought into presenting a simple and reasonable explanation regarding a very serious and important matter on the Debate Table. Thanks for making my abreviation a joke and diminsihing the thought and effort I made. Save the jokes for the Lame Board so adults can have a thoughtful and serious discussion.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='onlygrace08' post='1091122' date='Oct 13 2006, 08:04 PM']
One of the "requirements" for a mortal sin is that one knows that he/she is doing something wrong. This probably applies to salvation as well. If one has never heard of God, how can they knowingly reject Him? Then, how could they be damned? However, like someone said before, we can't actually know for sure.

God Bless

Anna
[/quote]
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

My personal take on this (although I'm open to correction) is that we are responsible for our response to the level of revelation which we have received. Not everyone gets the full pitch, but we all get enough to make a decision about whether we are going to reject God or not.

[Budge]

Luke 15....

Three kinds of sinners, but they are all still LOST...

The first sinner...is the lost sheep who wanders off---, just led by the siren call of the world, the second sinner, is the lost silver coin...which hasnt been found...still called LOST, and the third is the rebellious sinner who shakes their fist at God and refuses to obey.

{just food for thought, Im thinking on this one still}

15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

15:5 And when he hath found [it], he layeth [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.

15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together [his] friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

[b]15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?

15:9 And when she hath found [it], she calleth [her] friends and [her] neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.[/b]
15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.

15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put [it] on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on [his] feet:

15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry:

15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

15:29 And he answering said to [his] father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Sojourner thanks for posting Romans 1:20:)

[Anomaly]

Budge,
Do you ascribe to the OSAS doctrine? Once you are saved, you cannot lose salvation?