The "altar Call"

[Katholikos]

Circle writes:

There is also no mass in Scripture.  There are also no Cathedrals in Scripture.  There are also no monestaries in Scripture.  There is also no liturgy in Scripture, yet you have all of them.  Don't even freaking use logic like that - this is ridiculous.  I feel like I'm arguing with a little kid who just shakes his head and says 'no' over and over again.

Where in the Scriptures does it say 'These are the Scriptures,' followed by a list of the inspired Scriptures, and signed 'God'?

Where in the Scriptures does it say "Thou shalt not use any words not found in the Scriptures"?

"Bible" is not in the Bible. New Testament and Old Testament are not in the Bible. What is the Bible, anyway? The one cut by Martin Luther that you use, or the real one?

Mass - The name for the Holy Sacrifice in Scripture was "the breaking of the bread." Eventually called the "Divine Liturgy" or the "Mass." 'Mass' is a late form of 'missio' --"sending" -- from which the faithful are sent to put into practice what they have learned and to use the graces they have received in the Eucharistic liturgy. The Divine Liturgy is the term used by Eastern Catholic Churches.

Liturgy - The public worship of the Church. LGr leitourgia Eucharist.

Cathedral - from "cathedra" meaning "chair." A church where the symbol of a bishop's authority -- his chair (in the OT, the chair of Moses, Mt 23:1-2) -- is found; i.e., the church which the bishop of a diocese calls home.

Monastery - LGr monasterion, hermit's cell

Anything else, Circle?

JMJ Likos

[Katholikos]

Circle, don't say the "F" word in front of Likos. He's not SAVED.

Weak, Hyper. Very weak. It's okay for Circle to use that kind of language at phatmass, just not in front of me? carp becomes carp when filtered at phatmass. But clear euphemisms for f------ get a pass? You disappoint me.

[hyperdulia again]

*eep*

I don't think it is a clear euphemism for the "F" word. I don't even think of the "F" word when I see that word.

BUT Ladies and Gents we have people of many different perspectives posting here, so let's not put a stumbling block before anyone.

[hyperdulia again]

In other words, if it can be used (or is commonly used) in the place of one of the seven dirty words, don't say it.

If ya wanna know what the seven dirty words are PM me.

[M.SIGGA]

When I made my Confirmation, I was taught that the Protestant altar call is a remnant of the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation, which is sort of a formalized altar call if you think about it. When I sort of left the Church in high school and answered an altar call the non-denominational minister explained this too w/ an anti-Catholic twist of course. In Confirmation We have a witness, we make a public profession of faith, and we are sealed by the HS. We are given a new name in Christ. Evangelical Protestants don't have hands laid on them by a bishop like Catholics, but their ministers lay hands and pray over their people too. Non-evangelical mainline protestant churches like Lutherans, some Methodists, and Episcopalians don't have altar calls but do have an exercise, no longer a sacrament, but still called Confirmation, and it is done by their denomination's respective bishop. I'm shocked after 3 pages this hasn't been mentioned already.

[phatcatholic]

circle,

the mass isn't in the bible? hmm....

BIBLICAL OVERVIEW: SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

I. DEFINITION OF SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

The re-presentation, re-enactment, and effective application of the merits gained by Jesus by His one sacrifice at Calvary on the Cross. Jesus' death in past history is present to God (e.g., Rev 5:6; 13:8). In each Mass, His sacrifice is made real and present to us, transcending space and time. Jesus Himself offers each Mass by means of human priests, who act in His stead. As in the Last Supper, Jesus is both Priest and Victim. The congregation also participates in the offering, like the disciples at the Last Supper, although with more understanding.

II. SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

1. General Hints in the Old Testament

The Eucharist is prefigured in the Tree of Life in Eden, the sacrifices of Abraham and Melchisedech, the manna in the desert, the Shew-bread in the Temple, and the various sacrifices of the Old Covenant (e.g., Lev 23:13), especially the Paschal Lamb. If the Jews had the visible glory of God present in their Tabernacle and Temple, we should expect to have the same God present in our Tabernacles (in each Catholic church).

2. Genesis 14:18 / Psalm 110:4

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he {was} the priest of the most high God."

"The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou {art} a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

{Cf. Heb 5:6; 7:1 ff.}

A. The OT prophesied that Jesus would offer a true sacrifice to God, and implied it would be bread and wine, "after the order of Melchizedek." Thus, as the Fathers of the Church held, the Sacrifice of the Mass is spoken of, since this description doesn't fit the bloody sacrifice at Calvary. The specific duty of a priest, by definition, is sacrifice. Jesus, like Melchizedek, is King and Priest at the same time. It's interesting to note also that "Salem" is regarded as ancient Jerusalem by Bible scholars (see, e.g., Ps 76:2), giving all the more significance to the above information.

3. Isaiah 66:18,21 ". . . I will gather all nations and tongues . . . (21) And I will also take of them for priests {and} for Levites, saith the Lord."

A. Here is proclaimed a priesthood among the Gentiles in the Church Age, which necessarily entails the element of sacrifice. The Catholic Church (and Eastern Orthodoxy) possesses this; Protestantism doesn't, citing only the "priesthood of all believers."

4. Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name {shall be} great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense {shall be} offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name {shall be} great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts."

A. God is proclaiming a new, clean sacrifice, again among the Gentiles, and clearly universal ("in every place"). Thus, the Sacrifice of the Cross cannot be intended, since it was in one place only. The Mass fulfills the prophecy.

5. The Book of Hebrews

A. The theme of this book is Jesus as our High Priest. As such, the verses relevant for our topic are too numerous to cite in their entirety. Heb 13:10 refers to an "altar"; the other verses below have to do with Jesus' priestly mission. In Protestant interpretation, they are basically "spiritualized" away. For the Protestant, broadly speaking, Jesus is a Priest only insofar as He dies sacrificially and does away with the OT notion of the priesthood and animal sacrifice. This is not false but it is only a partial truth. For the Catholic, there is much more of a sense of the ever-present nature of the Sacrifice of Calvary, due to the nature of the Mass, rather than considering the Cross a past event alone.

B. "Priestly" Verses

2:17 5:1-10 8:1-6

3:1 6:20 9:11-15,24-28

4:14-16 7:1-28 (entire) 10:19-22

6. The "Altar" in Heaven in the Book of Revelation

A. Revelation (called the Apocalypse by Catholics) describes an altar in heaven before God's throne. This is curious if Protestantism is correct about the need for altars being abolished with the death of Jesus and the end of the OT system of sacrifice and priests. In actuality, the Bible is a continuous whole from Genesis to Revelation, with no radical discontinuity between the OT and NT or Old and New Covenants, as Protestantism is wont to believe. In Revelation we find the "altar" or "golden altar" being mentioned in 6:9; 8:3-5; 9:13; 11:1; 14:18; and 16:7.

The climactic scene of this glorious portrayal of heaven occurs in Rev 5:1-10. Verse 6 describes the "Lamb as it had been slain." The Lamb (Jesus) is "in the midst of the throne" (5:6) which is in front of the "golden altar" (8:3). Is this presentation of Jesus as "Lamb" to the Father a one-time event or an ongoing occurrence (from God's perspective, timeless)? We have strong biblical indications that the latter is more accurate. The sacrifice made "once" in Heb 7:27 refers to the human, historical death on Calvary of Jesus. However, there is a transcendent aspect of the Sacrifice as well. Rev 13:8 describes "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," and Heb 7:24-5 informs us that:

But this {man}, because he continueth ever, hath an un-changeable priesthood. (25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

In conclusion, it is evident that Hebrews and Revelation are suffused with a "Catholic worldview." The realms depicted are filled with "Catholic air," so to speak. The Sacrifice of the Mass, rightly understood, fulfills every aspect of the above passages, most particularly in the sense of Jesus as the ultimate Priest for whom the earthly priest "stands in," and in the timeless and transcendent character of the Sacrifice "made present" at Mass, but never deemed to be an addition to, or duplication of, the one bloody Sacrifice of our Lord at Calvary.

III. AFTERWORD (Thomas Howard)

This divine love is such that not only does God give Himself to us and for us but, unimaginably, takes us into this very mystery of self-giving and makes us one with His Son, calling us the very Body of this Son who offers Himself to the Father. The bread of the E is the Body of Christ, and the Church is the Body of Christ; and that Body - both Christ's personal body and his Body the Church - like bread, has only one reason for being: to be broken and given. All is offering; all is sacrifice; all is oblation. Worship without oblation is no worship.

{Evangelical is Not Enough}

[Archangel]

And let's not forget that the bible is also in the Mass: http://www.catholicsites.com/beggarking/Mass.html

[phatcatholic]

good call Archangel....

"How Do Catholics Hear the Gospel?"

btw, welcome to Phatmass!

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Jake Huether]

I think Circle mentioned that an "alter call" is where people "get saved". But then, would the minister consider you saved if you had a conversion in your heart, yet didn't make a public announcment obout it; rather, just started living your faith.

For Protestants, does salvation hing on confessing with your mouth that Christ is your personal savior? And if so, isn't this a work?

[Bruce S]

For Protestants, does salvation hinge on confessing with your mouth that Christ is your personal savior? And if so, isn't this a work?

Yep. You gotta move those lips.

I guess you have us there. We now have "works" too as a requirement for salvation.

Darn it, I hate it when you nail us this way...

:rolleyes:

[mulls]

I think Circle mentioned that an "alter call" is where people "get saved". But then, would the minister consider you saved if you had a conversion in your heart, yet didn't make a public announcment obout it; rather, just started living your faith.

For Protestants, does salvation hing on confessing with your mouth that Christ is your personal savior? And if so, isn't this a work?

it doesn't matter what the minister thinks.

i gave my life to the Lord in this manner, at the end of a church service. but there was no altar call. instead, the pastor asked the congregation to close their eyes, and if anyone wanted to give their life to Christ, to raise their hand so the pastor could pray for you.

so i raised my hand. after I accepted Christ. i think the Lord knew I was embarrassed, and wouldn't go up for an altar call in front of so many people, so this was perfect for me.

[Bruce S]

Going up there, was terrifying to me. I really, really, really didn't want to do it, but knew I had to make THAT PUBLIC CONFESSION, and ACCEPTANCE in front of man, God, and my family.

It wasn't real without that DIVIDING POINT, the before and after point, where the rubber meets the road.

Attending church, and hiding in the back rows isn't the same thing.

Getting off your butt, swallowing your pride, and going up there is.

Some may think this is a shallow way to enter the faith, but for those that have actually done it, it is so defining a moment, so difficult, so ... so....

DEFINATE.

[Jake Huether]

I don't intend to pit Mulls against Bruce or vice versa,

But Bruce seems to think that the way in which Mulls gave over his life to Christ is incomplete unless "those lips are moving".

Can one of you or both of you comment on this?

Is it required to "move those lips" in public. Or is it Biblically okay to have a more personal conversion and maybe "move those lips" in private?

I'm just rather confused.

Thanks.

[mulls]

what do you mean by public and private?

i told everyone that I had become a Christian after that service. it's not like i was hiding it.

[cmotherofpirl]

Is there a requirement somewhere that you get up in public?