BLAZEr Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Let me define this for you - you seem very ignorant of protestant things. An altar call is when the Pastor gives an invitation for someone to come to Christ and repent of his past. The person comes forward to where the altar used to be and the person gets saved. An altar is the stand at the front of the room on which the Pastor could put his bible, or other stuff. It is not a sacrificial altar - it is another word for podium. Sheesh! now podium mean altar? wow, you even change the definition of words . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Likos, read my post above and explain how all those things mentioned are not true and I might consider you when you say "The altar call is unbiblical... one of instantaneous salvation.. which allegedly results from accepted Jesus Christ as one's personal Lord and Savior." If you can't figure out how all those verses fit into a "non-instantaneous" salvation, then don't bother. Scripture is quite clear on this. Slinging scripture verses which have been ripped out of the context in which they were written is a waste of time. Christianity is not based on your (or someone else's) interpretation of selected New Testament Scriptures. Rather, Christianity and the New Testament are based upon the organic, teaching Catholic Church, which is nearly 400 years older than both. That's why St. Paul says of the very visible church he persecuted that it is, "the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth" 1 Tim 3:15. There were no "altar calls" until the 16th century and later -- period. Therefore, neither Christ nor the Apostles taught it. The Catholic Church does not do altar calls. Never has in 2,000 years. Never will. Case closed. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 So, you've re-formed the Church as Christ instituted it. You've re-formed the formula for getting saved. You've re-formed what an altar is. I'm not ignorant of things protestant. I would just like to point out that these re-formations (dare I call them what they really are--de-formations!) are all inventions of MAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Slinging scripture verses which have been ripped out of the context in which they were written is a waste of time. Christianity is not based on your (or someone else's) interpretation of selected New Testament Scriptures. Rather, Christianity and the New Testament are based upon the organic, teaching Catholic Church, which is nearly 400 years older than both. That's why St. Paul says of the very visible church he persecuted that it is, "the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth" 1 Tim 3:15. I ripped no verse out of context. Read them yourself, get the correct context for yourself. I bet you did not look up even one of them. You criticize me for failing to acknowledge the CC as truth - I now criticize you for being so proud of yourself you seek not for truth, but are zealous for the faith you have. Just as Paul was zealous for his Jewish faith which he believed to be the truth. Yet Paul was wrong, very wrong, because he did not seek truth anymore - he was merely zealous. There were no "altar calls" until the 16th century and later -- period. Therefore, neither Christ nor the Apostles taught it. The Catholic Church does not do altar calls. Never has in 2,000 years. Never will. Case closed. There is also no mass in Scripture. There are also no Cathedrals in Scripture. There are also no monestaries in Scripture. There is also no liturgy in Scripture, yet you have all of them. Don't even freaking use logic like that - this is ridiculous. I feel like I'm arguing with a little kid who just shakes his head and says 'no' over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 We do have altar calls. I went to the altar rail today and Fathher put the King of the Universe on my tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Let me define this for you - you seem very ignorant of protestant things. An altar call is when the Pastor gives an invitation for someone to come to Christ and repent of his past. The person comes forward to where the altar used to be and the person gets saved. An altar is the stand at the front of the room on which the Pastor could put his bible, or other stuff. It is not a sacrificial altar - it is another word for podium. Sheesh! According to Webster, an altar is an elevated place or platform where religious rites or sacrifices are performed. No Protestant church offers sacrifice. No Protestant church has altars (but some Lutherans and Episcopalians call their tables 'altars'). But Evangelicals and Fundamentalists continue to refer to their pastor's invitation to "accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" as an "altar call." Go figure. To quote Circle, this is where and how "the person gets saved." Ipso facto. Instantaneously. Zap. You're saved. And Once you're Saved, brother, you're Always Saved. Even "if you commit adultery or murder thousands of times each day, nothing can separate you from God" (Martin Luther). That's better than a money-back guarantee! I got nothin' to worry about, folks. I'm home free, 'cause I got "saved" many times as a Baptist answering those 'altar calls.' JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 If an altar is a podium, and a podium is an altar... Did the Jews read the scrolls upon an altar, and sacrifice lambs upon podiums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I ripped no verse out of context. Read them yourself, get the correct context for yourself. There is also no mass in Scripture. There are also no Cathedrals in Scripture. There are also no monestaries in Scripture. There is also no liturgy in Scripture, yet you have all of them. Don't even freaking use logic like that - this is ridiculous. I feel like I'm arguing with a little kid who just shakes his head and says 'no' over and over again. The NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics. It can only be understood when read by the light of what the Church was teaching. That's the context, Circle. I'm not talking textual context, important though that is. I'm talking about the historical context in which the NT was thought, written, and taught. You can't understand the American Constitution by reading it within the context of Chinese history. It has to be read within the context of the American experience. The Bible has to be read within the context of the Catholic experience; the NT grew out of that experience. Hey -- you missed a couple. There's no New Testament in the NT, and no Bible in the Bible. Hyper, wash this guy's mouth out with soap. Profanity (or obvious euphemisms for profanity) should not be allowed on phatmass. I always know when Circle can't argue the logic of my statements -- that's when his attacks get very ugly and very personal. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Circle, don't say the "F" word in front of Likos. He's not SAVED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I now criticize you for being so proud of yourself you seek not for truth, but are zealous for the faith you have. Just as Paul was zealous for his Jewish faith which he believed to be the truth. Yet Paul was wrong, very wrong, because he did not seek truth anymore - he was merely zealous. Now, Circle, get ahold of yourself. You're just wacking out on us here. Obviously you have not read Likos' conversion story on the Coming Home Network site. He searched for Truth like crazy. He didn't just convince himself that HE was right, because HE couldn't be wrong....like some peeps. It was a long, hard search. http://www.chnetwork.org/converts.htm Scroll down to Jay Damien. And read a few others, too. Last year over 300 protestant ministers converted to Catholicism. Those who continue to study and search, find Christ, in the Church He founded. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Don't even freaking use logic like that - this is ridiculous. I feel like I'm arguing with a little kid who just shakes his head and says 'no' over and over again. We feel the same way circle. And that is sad. We see a Church with a history grounded in the OT where there were altars and vestments and priests and sacrifice and obedience to God, just as he asked for. THose things do not save us, anymore than works do, but starting in Deuteronomy and Leviticus they are part of the way God surrounded Himself with ritual, mystery and beauty. Instead of a live lamb, we have the Lamb of God, the sacrifice now is His Son, who died for our sins. We see God's saving hand in thousands of years of continuous history. We see the Church as a community of believers which had its roots in people of Israel, a group called by God.We see the Old Covanant fulfilled by the New. We see the Church on its journey through the ages stretching from pentcost until the end of time, always changing and always the same. And somebody was always in charge. Christ has died , Christ is risen, Christ will come again. This is what we see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 12, 2004 Author Share Posted January 12, 2004 Christ didn't issue any "altar calls" at Calvary -- or any other time -- nor did the Apostles. The practice in unknown in the NT -- and it is unknown in history until the birth of evangelicalism in the 16th century and later. Ok, Likos. Explain the day of Pentecost then? The most dramatic ALTAR CALL in history. Emotion, sound, lights ... ACTION!! It worked too. 3,000 gave their lives to Jesus on that day. And they didn't even have Mass. I guess they forgot about Mass. Hmm. I guess we need Cardinal Newman to come along and retroactively correct that mistake too. Darn, they really really outta cannonize Newman soon, he comes in handy in moments like these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Pentecost was indeed a glorious day. Did they pass out bibles as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted January 12, 2004 Author Share Posted January 12, 2004 Pentecost was indeed a glorious day. Did they pass out bibles as well? Yep. I have MY collector edition, you didn't get one? Do you want the RED LETTER version, or the STUDENT VERSION? Ebay, they have everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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