Liturgical Dance

[vianney]

Ok I researched it for myself and you guys are right. Liturgical dance is NOT permitted in the west. I am at a loss as to why the GIRM wouldnt address the situation.

[vianney]

This remains the law today. In 1994 the same Vatican congregation ruled: "Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying, and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance" (Instruction

on Inculturation and the Roman Liturgy, 42; ital. added).

I guess it all depends on your definition of dancing. I raise my hands and sing while clapping and using hand motions while i pray, I think this is ok. But I can see where parading in while dancing can be wrong and is wrong according to the Vatican.

[cmotherofpirl]

I have no problem with swaying and clapping etc either. But in the Erie diocese teenage girls in tutus dance around the altar. I did hear Mass attendance among teenage boys then increased, but I don't think they came for the Eucharist. ;)

[vianney]

ha ha i guess that would be considered DISTASTEFUL form of liturgical dance...

Look I try very hard to be obiedent to the church and one thing I dont want is our church changing with the "culture" because our culture is carp. Hence the skimpy dancers dancing around the altar. I guess my experience of Liturgical Dance has been a better one and I see hand motions with the song as a form of dance but obviously we have different definitions of dance. I would agree though that people dancing around the altar would make me feel awckward and it is against the mass in the west...But I would like to know why...I mean as long as it is done tastefully and reverantly and not overdone why would there be a problem with it? Is it the performance aspect of it?

[jasJis]

Not so, Jas. The Last Supper was a seder, a time of remembering , singing and stories. It is a gathering or friends and family. It was certainly not Lent.

Sorry CMom,

I was trying to tie in the solemnity of Lenten Liturgeis with the emotional tone that was probably evident at the Last Supper. I didn't mean that Seder was always somber, but it must have been a pretty somber Passover meal on that particular occaission because the Apostles could not fathom or imagine Easter.

It does kinda make you wonder how the Apostles felt on that day. To actually know Jesus in person. Walking and talking with him as a physically present human, with a growing awareness of his Divinity, and then be told that he's going to be killed and witness that. To know Christ so intimately on one level, but to not know of His Ressurection yet.

On the Liturgical Dance thing. LT doesn't have it as part of the Liturgy. Some people may argue that handmotions, swaying, and clapping is dance, but it's done by the congregation, not others as part of the Mass.

My question is if this would not fall under the Discipline Authority of the Bishop to allow in certain circumstances, but is not allowed as a Liturgical Norm? As an example, allowing non-Catholics to recieve the Eucharist is permitted by the authority of the Bishop, but not allowed by Priest's authority.

[cmotherofpirl]

ha ha i guess that would be considered DISTASTEFUL form of liturgical dance... 

Look I try very hard to be obiedent to the church and one thing I dont want is our church changing with the "culture" because our culture is carp. Hence the skimpy dancers dancing around the altar. I guess my experience of Liturgical Dance has been a better one and I see hand motions with the song as a form of dance but obviously we have different definitions of dance. I would agree though that people dancing around the altar would make me feel awckward and it is against the mass in the west...But I would like to know why...I mean as long as it is done tastefully and reverantly and not overdone why would there be a problem with it? Is it the performance aspect of it?

First, the Last Supper didn't involve Mary leading a chorus line around the table. It followed the set form of a sedar, and Jesus transformed it by changing the words to make himself the sacrifice instead of the lamb. He said do THIS in rememberance of me. And so the Church has done so for 2000 years.

Unlike the Hawaiians, Indians, Native Americans, Balinese etc, the culture you and I live in does not have a tradition of sacred dance. We are only several hundred years old. In our culture dance is anything but sacred. Ballroom and square dances are not designed to lift our spirits to God. So to put some kind of dance into an suburban American Mass while possibly could be aesthetically pleasing to some people, it is a novelty and has nothing culturally normal about it.

When we come together as a Mass we come together as the Body of Christ. Altar servers, lectors, chanters and cantors have a legitimate part to play and come from the community. What would the legitimate part of a dancer to be? In America we celebrate the perversion of the body on a daily basis so introducing dancing in the liturgy would be particularly dangerous. I wasn't kidding about the increase of Mass attendance in the church were girls in tutus swirled around the Altar. Women dancing around an altar harkens more the the worship of Baal, or the pagan goddesses than the God of the Old and New Testaments.

[jasJis]

CMom,

Personally, I agree with you 100% about Liturgical dance within the Liturgy. I personally would be creeped out. But that's my opinion. (Personally, I'm much more offended by seeing exposed midriffs, short skits/shorts, cut off jeans, exposed boxers, low slung pantaloons (male & female), and inappropriate t-shirts.)

How could we find out if this is not something that falls under the authority of the Bishop? Even if I may not agree with the Bishop's opinion on something, it doesn't make the Bishop wrong (or right).

I'd rather spend the time getting people to finish dressing before they go to church instead of worrying about them dancing. Now dancing in Church with short skirts or pantaloons that won't stay up is too much horror for me to imagine...

[Anna]

(I attended a Mass once--in front of our bishop--where clowns took up the offertory gifts, including a heart shaped helium filled balloon.)

There was also liturgical dancing, with a large black candle. I still remember one of the girls appeared to be dancing in purple satin pajamas. The dancers all lit little colored candles from the central black candle, danced around the altar, and carried the little candles out to the Faithful in the pews. I suppose it symbolized something...what, I don't know.

jas, no one has even mentioned LT on this thread, just commenting on liturgical dancing in general.

Signing is a form of communicating lyrics for deaf members of the congregation. That doesn't qualify as dancing in my book...

Pax Christi. <><

Edited July 28, 2003 by Anna

[vianney]

thats crossing the line when clowns are there i mean cmon that isnt done tastefully

[cmotherofpirl]

CMom,

Personally, I agree with you 100% about Liturgical dance within the Liturgy.  I personally would be creeped out.  But that's my opinion.  (Personally, I'm much more offended by seeing exposed midriffs, short skits/shorts, cut off jeans, exposed boxers, low slung pantaloons (male & female), and inappropriate t-shirts.)

How could we find out if this is not something that falls under the authority of the Bishop?  Even if I may not agree with the Bishop's opinion on something, it doesn't make the Bishop wrong (or right).

I'd rather spend the time getting people to finish dressing before they go to church instead of worrying about them dancing.  Now dancing in Church with short skirts or pantaloons that won't stay up is too much horror for me to imagine...

If the National Conference of Bishops says liturgical dancing is forbidden, then the bishop is bound to obey. THese regulations do not come in the form of suggestions. While the Bishop is the chief liturgist in the diocese, he is bound by GIRM, indults and regs the same as the rest of us.

So if my Bishop says to stand for the Eucharist prayer instead of kneel or to dance down the aisle or recieve Communion on the tongue only, I am not bound to obey him. So Bishop Trautman allowing liturgical dancing is wrong, just as a Bishop who permits intercommunion is wrong.

We are called to be faithful to the Church, not the local Bishop or priest if he is in error.

Blind obedience is no obedience at all.

[cmotherofpirl]

Sorry CMom,

I was trying to tie in the solemnity of Lenten Liturgeis with the emotional tone that was probably evident at the Last Supper.  I didn't mean that Seder was always somber, but it must have been a pretty somber Passover meal on that particular occaission because the Apostles could not fathom or imagine Easter.

It does kinda make you wonder how the Apostles felt on that day.  To actually know Jesus in person.  Walking and talking with him as a physically present human, with a growing awareness of his Divinity, and then be told that he's going to be killed and witness that.  To know Christ so intimately on one level, but to not know of His Ressurection yet.

On the Liturgical Dance thing.  LT doesn't have it as part of the Liturgy.  Some people may argue that handmotions, swaying, and clapping is dance, but it's done by the congregation, not others as part of the Mass. 

My question is if this would not fall under the Discipline Authority of the Bishop to allow in certain circumstances, but is not allowed as a Liturgical Norm?  As an example, allowing non-Catholics to recieve the Eucharist is permitted by the authority of the Bishop, but not allowed by Priest's authority.

We don't know that the Last Supper was a somber event. THe apostles knew the city was tense, but probably thought it was a normal passover meal. I don't think they really had a clue.

I know LT doesn't have liturgical dancing and I have no problem with swaying and clapping to good music. You probably have never experienced a Mass in a predominately black Catholic parish have you? I had a black roommate in college and she was filled with the joy of the Lord.

A bishop can give a non-catholic communion under certain extraordinary circumstances, but if you read the details of the rules I can never realistically see it happen can you? Unless you are in space or Antartica.

THats why I have a problem with letting teens anywhere near the altar during Mass. Its not permitted. THere have been no exceptions made even for people serving the congregation during Mass, even EEms cannot be there, so why should teens get special priviledges? Should we have an old people's Mass and invite them up? Unless teens fall under the category of childrens Masses, they need to be the congregation like everybody else. There is no reason that they cannot fill the front pews of the Church? Proximity to the altar does not increase your holiness. So why the insistance on this disobedience? Why can't you make a teen feel special without breaking the rules t do it?

To me its just another group of people saying my way is better than the Church's way.

[Good Friday]

I agree with Cheryl, and I'm a teen. There's no need to be close to the altar at any time, since you will be so close to Jesus that you won't even realize how close He really is to you once you've received the Eucharist. Now there's closeness. I would even venture to say that the "need" to be close to the altar might diminish the reality of how close He is to us when we've received Him in the Eucharist.

And on the topic of whether or not the local Bishop has the authority to allow liturgical dancing... I don't really think he would, since the Congregation for Divine Worship (which is very authoritative) has said no to liturgical dancing in the West, and so has the National Conference of Catholic Bishops. But even if the local Bishop could grant exceptions, I'm not sure why he would want to. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the NCCB have both given very good reasons not to allow liturgical dance here (one reason is provided in the quote I posted). It seems that it would be unwise at best for the local Bishop to ignore the wisdom of the Congregation for Divine Worship and his own Conference of Bishops...