Discernment And Dating

[rkwright]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1090011' date='Oct 12 2006, 04:19 PM']
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"My spiritual advisor advised that dating during this time would be counter-productive"

- don't you think he knows more than us, about you, your situation, etc?

I think you should follow the sd advice.

Dating during discernment can be tempting, but to me, it's scandalous.
[/quote]

No I agree.... I should note that I'm not really changing anything until I talk to Fr. first, which just happens to be tomorrow.

As far as scandalous... I dunno about that, for sure no matter what I do, at this point in my life I'm not married and called to chastity and holiness no matter if I'm dating or discerning...

[kentigern]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1090011' date='Oct 12 2006, 10:19 PM']
Dating during discernment can be tempting, but to me, it's scandalous.
[/quote]

I disagree with this. I was talking to yet another Priest today, who very much believes that in vocational discernment it is critical to be open minded, no matter what spiritual experiences and thought processes one might have been going through.

If during the process of thinking about religious vocation you develop a close spiritual friendship with someone of the opposite sex and fall in love with that person, then I would have thought you have almost a duty to investigate whether you might be wrong about having a vocation to religious life, and whether God has put this person in your life for a reason. Dating is the best way to do this, though transparency and honesty are important.

Being in a relationship with someone of the oppostie sex allows one to love better, and allows one to know oneself better. Both are critical steps in discerning a vocation, whether to marriage or the religious life. It is of course important to be honest, holy, and chaste in any relationship that develops. The relationship must also be affirming and affectionate, and there must be mutual attraction and trust, and there must be communication. If one has a vocation to religious life, that would make you a better religious, if one has a vocation to marriage, it goes without saying that such a relationship will help you be sure that you have the right person.

The only way in my view that dating while thinking about religious vocation is scandalous would be if one to engage in a sexual relationship while thinking about a religious vocation. I think all would agree with me! Otherwise if one is not married and one is not bound by vows to a religious order, one is free to date chastely and should do so if the right person comes along and a strong friendship develops. Sometimes the right person will not come along, this is fine. We shouldn't close ourselves to the right person appearing though, and we shouldn't close ourslves to deep friendships with the opposite sex. God may have something to say through these friendships.

A more specific point rkwright. It sounds like you don't know this girl very well, and it sounds like you have not thought about Priesthood for long either. I don't think you should date this girl unless a strong Spiritual friendship develops first, and I honestly don't think you will close of the chance of dating her by admitting to being confused about vocation to her. I hope that this person helps you see your vocation more clearly. Confusion about vocation is good, because it stops us falling for the temptation of moulding vocation on our own terms and allows God to mould it. We must remain open to all attractions at all times.

You should talk to your Spiritual Director about this of course. As someone said, we don't know you well, and this forum is no substitue for a wise and open Spiritual Director.

God bless,

Gordon

Edited October 12, 2006 by kentigern

[daveybe]

I, too, am hesitant to use the word scandalous.

The way i see it, every human being is in discernment from the moment they reach the Age of Reason until they commit to a Vocation (married life, generous single life, holy orders, religious life, consecrated virginity). For many, dating is a part of the discernment process which leads to an understanding of which Vocation God has called them to.

Of course, once a man or woman discerns that they are called to religious life, they enter another sort of discernment -- that of discerning which religious community to join. At that point, dating is certainly inappropriate.

Or, when a man discerns a call to Holy Orders, he then begins to discern whether it is diocesan or order priesthood, or perhaps which diocese to join, etc. Dating would be inappropriate there as well.

I think it depends how far along one's discernment is.

Peace to All,
D.Be

[Veritas]

+

"If one has a vocation to religious life, that would make you a better religious, if one has a vocation to marriage, it goes without saying that such a relationship will help you be sure that you have the right person."


~I think this is your basic point.

However, look at many of our saints e.g.

St. Therese and

Mother Teresa

And, an inifinite number of additional saints, both men and women, who loved totally and exclusively our Lord without having a boyfriend or girlfriend first. I disagree with your premise that male/female romantic relationships carte blanche makes you a better priest, religious, or married person. What evidence suggests that people who date more are better spouses? Whether of the church, man or woman, or Christ? In fact, we know how to love without said "experience" as the saints and many popes have shown (Pope John Paul II and Benedict the XVI among them, I believe).

In these "chaste" and honest relationships you describe, one may be chaste with their body, but are they chaste with their hearts? Again, I think it is selfish and unfair to the other as the purpose of dating is marriage! If one is not free to marry (even in one's own mind because of reservations of even the calling to marriage) one is not free to be pursuing said course. Why "stir-up" these emotions?


"We must remain open to all attractions at all times."

This statement troubles me on many levels. You may have not intended it as such, but this statment, is obviously not true. We must not remain open to attractions to members of the same sex, members of our families, children, animals, other people's wives (includind priests, religious, and seminarians).

Edited October 13, 2006 by Veritas

[veroni213]

I'm not a big fan of dating during discernment. I suppose there could be cases where it [i]might[/i] be prudent, but I don't think there are many. My reasoning on this basically goes like this...

When you are discerning you aren't trying to figure out if you want to be married, but if you are called to live a celibate life. Since it's normal to be attracted to people of the opposite sex, there's a good chance that even someone who is called to the priesthood or the religious life is going to enjoy at least some aspect of dating. That shouldn't be a surprise and you certainly don't need to date to figure that out. After all, there is sacrifice involved.

I think its much more important to determine whether you can deal with being a single person, while the other people around you are dating and getting married. The only way to do that it is to stay single.

Also, there's no use playing with your and someone else's emotions.

Edited October 13, 2006 by TrueImage

[kentigern]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1090203' date='Oct 13 2006, 03:44 AM']
+

"If one has a vocation to religious life, that would make you a better religious, if one has a vocation to marriage, it goes without saying that such a relationship will help you be sure that you have the right person."
~I think this is your basic point.

However, look at many of our saints e.g.

St. Therese and

Mother Teresa

And, an inifinite number of additional saints, both men and women, who loved totally and exclusively our Lord without having a boyfriend or girlfriend first. I disagree with your premise that male/female romantic relationships carte blanche makes you a better priest, religious, or married person. What evidence suggests that people who date more are better spouses? Whether of the church, man or woman, or Christ? In fact, we know how to love without said "experience" as the saints and many popes have shown (Pope John Paul II and Benedict the XVI among them, I believe).

In these "chaste" and honest relationships you describe, one may be chaste with their body, but are they chaste with their hearts? Again, I think it is selfish and unfair to the other as the purpose of dating is marriage! If one is not free to marry (even in one's own mind because of reservations of even the calling to marriage) one is not free to be pursuing said course. Why "stir-up" these emotions?
"We must remain open to all attractions at all times."

This statement troubles me on many levels. You may have not intended it as such, but this statment, is obviously not true. We must not remain open to attractions to members of the same sex, members of our families, children, animals, other people's wives (includind priests, religious, and seminarians).
[/quote]


Veritas,

I think you misunderstood me. By dating I do not mean going out with lots and lots of people, and then casting them aside when you discover that you can't get on with them.

I am talking about acting on rare but beautiful friendships that sometimes occur between people of the opposite sex, often when one or both parties are thinking about religious life. When a deep and Spiritual friendship occurs (and in my experience this happens very rarely), and where there is mutual attraction, I am saying that one should investigate. Sometimes this sort of friendship will not occur when one is thinking about religious life, and I am certainly not advocating having lots and lots of boyfriends / girlfriends while thinking about religious life (or even while thinking about marriage!). Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should go out with people willy nilly because of some passing attraction. I think that there should be a serious and deep friendship before either party consider "going out".

Often when someone feels called to religious life a friendship such as I describe does not occur. That is fine, and may serve to confirm that persons call to religious life. I do think though that if given the chance to investigate the opposite path, one should do so seriously, if only to further confirm and strenghen there idea of religious life. By being honest with the other party one does not play with other people's feelings. If one or both parties feels that they should think about religious life they must be honest and say so. This protects against playing with other people's feelings.

I most certainly am not advocating relationships carte blanche, and I am not advoacting going out with unlimited numbers of people while thtinking about any path!

One other thing, by being open to all attractions, I obviously mean only acting on those attractions that come from God. A deep Spiritual friendship with someone of the opposite sex is a gift from God, and the attraction of a man for a women is also holy and comes from God. If both are present then I think it is appropriate to investigate further. Obviously it would be inappropriate to act on some passing physical attraction for someone of the opposite sex if there is no deep friendship, and obviously it is inappropriate to engage in homosexual relationships etc. Obviously I am not advocating adultary, or going out with Prietss and religious either! One must only act if appropriate!

I hope I have cleared up any misunderstandings!

Gordon

Edited October 13, 2006 by kentigern

[kentigern]

Hmn, One other misunderstanding that might have arisen from what I said.

If one does end up ina relationship such as I describe, I think one should discern whether one is called to live a celibate life or not. While thinking about this I think it is perfectly legitamate to say at the same time "If I am called to live a celibate life, what kind of celibate life should I lead?". If other words if one does get involved in a relationship, this does not mean that the thought process regarding religious communities etc should stop, if you see what I mean!

Gordon

[xTrishaxLynnx]

I'm certainly no expert, but I think it is hard enough to discern without putting yourself into a position to be pulled in two directions. I can see being open to God's will... but if you've got a pretty good idea of where you may be called, I'd focus on that for the time being.

I recall a homily by the great [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48740&hl="]Padre Paulo [/url] in which he spoke of (or warned against) being pulled in several directions to the point of becoming paralyzed... and therefore doing nothing. I think this is something you ought to consider.

That said... this girl came into your life at the time she did for a reason... Determining in which direction this is suppose to lead you is between God and yourself. Pray, pray, pray... and know that you are in our prayers. God Bless

[Veritas]

+

Thanks for your thoughts Gordon. I think you made some interesting points.

However, regarding your quote below:


"If one does end up ina relationship such as I describe, I think one should discern whether one is called to live a celibate life or not. While thinking about this I think it is perfectly legitamate to say at the same time "If I am called to live a celibate life, what kind of celibate life should I lead?". If other words if one does get involved in a relationship, this does not mean that the thought process regarding religious communities etc should stop, if you see what I mean!"


~I think the time to discern celibacy is not done best while one is in a relationship! I know so many people, who have gone down this path and it is virtually impossible! And, it creates much unneccessary heartache for both! Again, why create an impediment when none is there, in rkwright's case, e.g.? It is irrelevant whether the person is dating one person seriously or many casually. Neither, I posit, as demonstrated by MANY, is necessary for discerment. Furthermore, the issue of chastity of the heart has still not been addressed as a serious consideration. I think this is a matter of simple prudence. It doesn't matter how "honest" one is, they are not free in their hearts with the notion of marriage or celibacy at this point, and therefore not free to be in a relationship!

Therefore, don't date if you're seriously discerning.

One doesn't need to do drugs to discern that they are not called to do drugs, e.g. or to use a more healthy example, one doesn't need to adopt an all fruit diet to realize they do in fact need other carbohydrates and protein! The difference, of course is that in dating, SOMEONE ELSE'S feelings are involved! Sure, God can speak through one through these experiences, but they are almost always in-spite of and not because of them!

As a good model, my friend Paul, eg. had been discerning the seminary. He also became interested in his friend Anna. However, he had been discerning and felt the tug. So, before dating her, he entered the seminary. He spent one year there and discerned it was not his call -but, he had focused on it and thus could feel truly at peace about his decision! Anna had waited for him, although he out of respect had not talked with her to elicit her to do so. Thus, being free they dated for several months and he and Anna were married last February and are expecting their first baby in spring!

On the other hand, Fr. MacDonald was dating a woman while he discerned. He broke off their ENGAGEMENT to enter the seminary. She still won't talk to him and wouldn't enter a church for years! Even if things don't go this far, feelings are unneccessarily involved!

Being in romantic relationships/dating is NOT part of discernment. Although, God can use it... it is NOT a part of discernment! This is a fundamental distinction!

Okay, done now. :

Blessings!

Edited October 13, 2006 by Veritas

[scardella]

All I can say is to obey your spiritual director. Be honest with him, but if you're discerning and he tells you not to date, then don't date. It's all about putting God's Will above your own.

[rkwright]

I very much appreciate all the feedback I've gotten in this thread, thank you so much for so many great thoughts...

I met with my SD this morning, and told him what I had been going through.

Let me just say I am so blessed to have such a great SP. I was a bit nervous even bringing all this up but his reaction was just what I needed at this time.

He was basically very glad to have this come up in my life at this point. He said this will create a tension in my heart, a longing for both dating and the priesthood and that out of this tension, my heart will begin to transform either to a calling to marriage or a calling to the priesthood.

He said that the intial no dating rule is not set in stone, and shouldn't be. He said that 'no dating' is more that I shouldn't be out looking to date, but in a case like this where someone has kinda come to me and come into my life that I should really take a look at how God is using this person in my life especially at this time.

He pretty much left it that I should welcome this tension, as it will allow me to 'own' my vocation whether it is to mariage or to priesthood.

From reading the above posts and this meeting with Fr. it does seem to be in her best interest to let her on as to my discernment before long; emotions are a strange thing and I certainly do not want to hurt her.

Edited October 13, 2006 by rkwright

[stlmom]

You sound like a really thoughtful and decent guy, and the same goes for your SD. God bless!

[Veritas]

+

May it be done unto you according to God's Word!

[goldbug16]

[quote name='xTrishaxLynnx' post='1090486' date='Oct 13 2006, 06:43 AM']
I'm certainly no expert, but I think it is hard enough to discern without putting yourself into a position to be pulled in two directions. I can see being open to God's will... but if you've got a pretty good idea of where you may be called, I'd focus on that for the time being.

I recall a homily by the great [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=48740&hl="]Padre Paulo [/url] in which he spoke of (or warned against) being pulled in several directions to the point of becoming paralyzed... and therefore doing nothing. I think this is something you ought to consider.

That said... this girl came into your life at the time she did for a reason... Determining in which direction this is suppose to lead you is between God and yourself. Pray, pray, pray... and know that you are in our prayers. God Bless
[/quote]

I remember that Homily. That was really good.