Ironmonk, You Never Answered..

[Circle_Master]

You contradicted yourself the first time I asked if you believed history could be known as a fact or not. I want an answer - Can history be fact?

And to your little quip about maybe I should read a history book - You do realize that it is *extremely* clear from Ignatius' work on ecclesastical structure that Peter does not have primacy? Or do you just always take quotes out of context like you did at the end there?

[Anna]

Is this another one-on-one thread?

If so, I beg your pardon.

I'd like to offer the point of view from the Orthodox Church, which is not presently in communion with Rome, but which dates back to the same origin at the Catholic Church.

What do they say about Ignatius of Antioch, and the primacy of Peter?

The Primacy of Peter: Essays in Ecclesiology and the Early Church edited by John Meyendorff (St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992)

on ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (c. 110 AD)

"We find the first direct evidence about the priority of the Roman Church in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch. Speaking of the Church of Rome, Ignatius uses the phrase 'which presides' in two passages.... The Roman Church 'presides' in love, that is, in the concord based on love between all the local churches. The term 'which presides' [Greek given] needs no discussion; used in the masculine it means the bishop, for he, as head of the local church, sits in the 'first place' at the eucharistic assembly, that is, in the central seat. He is truly the president of his church...[ignatius] pictured the local churches grouped, as it were, in a eucharistic assembly, with every church in its special place, and the church of Rome in the chair, sitting in the 'first place.' So, says Ignatius, the Church of Rome indeed has the priority in the whole company of churches united by concord....In his period no other church laid claim to the role, which belonged to the Church of Rome." (page 126-127)

Those Churches which were "around" at the same time of Ignatius of Antioch claim that he did, indeed, recognize the primacy of Peter.

It is the denominations who split and splintered some 1500 years later, or even hundreds of years later than that, who do not understand or accept the context within which St. Ignatius spoke.

Pax Christi. <><

[Circle_Master]

Anna, go read through all his letters to the different churches. He NEVER says to submit to rome, he ALWAYS says to submit to the bishop of your church. The phrase 'which presides in love' is also used only in his letter to Rome and does not indicate anything or primacy.

[Anna]

The two oldest Churches, the Orthodox, and the Catholic, both disagree with your interpretation.

In fact, little has changed in regard to Ignatius' admonisions to the Early Church. Each of the faithful and the clergy within a diocese still is expected to submit to the bishop of that diocese!

However, if all the bishops of all the dioceses convened in one setting, the pope would be the central, primary, and most revered of all the bishops. Of course, you knew that the pope is the Bishop of Rome, didn't you?

Pax Christi. <><

Edited January 11, 2004 by Anna

[Circle_Master]

Anna, does it say that the Roman Church presides, or Peter presides?

[Anna]

Peter was deceased by that time, having been crucified upside down around 67 AD, and having been succeeded by St. Linus 967-76 AD), so, the Church of Rome, meaning the diocese of Rome, and its bishop (the pope).

I guess this bears repeating for you: The pope is the Bishop of Rome.

When St. Ignatius speaks of the Church of Rome, as the church which presides, and says we must submit to the bishop, he refers to the pontiff, the pope, the Holy Father, el papa...

I guess it just goes to show that one can have knowledge without understanding. You aren't in the Church, so you don't understand her language, nor her hierarchy. (No insult intended.)

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

Iron monk might be a bit busy - diapers, 2am feedings: those little details of real life.

[Circle_Master]

Peter was deceased by that time, having been crucified upside down around 67 AD, and having been succeeded by St. Linus 967-76 AD), so, the Church of Rome, meaning the diocese of Rome, and its bishop (the pope).

I guess this bears repeating for you: The pope is the Bishop of Rome.

When St. Ignatius speaks of the Church of Rome, as the church which presides, and says we must submit to the bishop, he refers to the pontiff, the pope, the Holy Father, el papa...

I understand the pope is the Bishop of Rome. Now does Ignatius say "why" the church in Rome presides? You naturally assume "oh! it's because Peter's #1!" - but, Rome must preside in this context. It is the largest city, and the most powerful, and has the most authority over any of the other great churches at this point. There are many many reasons that Rome presides - and Ignatius does not say why.

Go into his ecclesiastical work now and guess what you see. Lots of documentation on the different sections and even one on the equality of bishops. What don't you see? anything on petrine dominancy. Nothing, Nada, Zilch, Cero, X.

[Bruce S]

Muhammed did as more to establish Rome as the head than any other theologian.

Yeah. Muhammed.

Bye-bye other competing power centers.

Perhaps they can sneak him in a Saint.

Grin.

[Circle_Master]

well Constantinople survived! we see how that went as well. hm

[Bruce S]

well Constantinople survived! we see how that went as well. hm

Protected by the MILITARY power of the West.

I wonder how long that would have stayed allied with Rome without the threat of Islam looming over Byzantium.

Even with that ...

They broke.

[ironmonk]

The answer is there.

You are wrong about Ignatius, but for arguement's sake, let's look at what other things that Ignatius wrote about... it appears that you see him as some form a proof, but is this a universal proof, or just whatever you think backs your stance?

Why would Ignatius write to Churches that the Bishops are loyal to the Pope and tell those people to honor their Bishops if what you think is true? Unity... Only in the Catholic Church is there such unity, but there are also heretics, but the heretics are the weeds among the wheat that will be seperated at harvest.

Ignatius of Antioch

Confession:

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).

Real Pressence:

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Sacrifice of the Mass:

"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

Bishop/Priest/Deacon:

"Now, therefore, it has been my privilege to see you in the person of your God-inspired bishop, Damas; and in the persons of your worthy presbyters, Bassus and Apollonius; and my fellow-servant, the deacon, Zotion. What a delight is his company! For he is subject to the bishop as to the grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Magnesians 2 [A.D. 110]).

"Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" (ibid., 6:1).

"Take care, therefore, to be confirmed in the decrees of the Lord and of the apostles, in order that in everything you do, you may prosper in body and in soul, in faith and in love, in Son and in Father and in Spirit, in beginning and in end, together with your most reverend bishop; and with that fittingly woven spiritual crown, the presbytery; and with the deacons, men of God. Be subject to the bishop and to one another as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit" (ibid., 13:1–2).

"Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore—and such is your practice that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, in whom we shall be found, if we live in him. It is necessary also that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries [sacraments] of Jesus Christ, be in every way pleasing to all men. For they are not the deacons of food and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They must therefore guard against blame as against fire" (Letter to the Trallians 2:1–3 [A.D. 110]).

"In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him" (ibid., 3:1–2).

"He that is within the sanctuary is pure; but he that is outside the sanctuary is not pure. In other words, anyone who acts without the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons does not have a clear conscience" (ibid., 7:2).

"I cried out while I was in your midst, I spoke with a loud voice, the voice of God: ‘Give heed to the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons.’ Some suspect me of saying this because I had previous knowledge of the division certain persons had caused; but he for whom I am in chains is my witness that I had no knowledge of this from any man. It was the Spirit who kept preaching these words, ‘Do nothing without the bishop, keep your body as the temple of God, love unity, flee from divisions, be imitators of Jesus Christ, as he was imitator of the Father’" (Letter to the Philadelphians 7:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

CHAPTER III.--EXHORTATIONS TO UNITY.

I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for the name [of Christ], I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as fellow-disciples with me. For it was needful for me to have been stirred up by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would all run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the[manifested] will of the Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds[of the earth], are so by the will of Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER V.--THE PRAISE OF UNITY.

For if I in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop--I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature--how much more do I reckon you happy who are so joined to him as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church ! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is written, "God resisteth the proud." Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God.

CHAPTER VI.--HAVE RESPECT TO THE BISHOP AS TO CHRIST HIMSELF.

Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself. And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God, that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor, indeed, do ye hearken to any one rather than to Jesus Christ speaking in truth.

CHAPTER VII.--BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS.

For some are in the habit of carrying about the name[of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the report of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the San of the Father: to those who are united, both according ta the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, [i wish] abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians

CHAPTER III.--AVOID SCHISMATICS.

Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].

CHAPTER IV.--HAVE BUT ONE EUCHARIST, ETC.

Take ye heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever ye do, ye may do it according to [the will of] God.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

CHAPTER VI--UNBELIEVERS IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST SHALL BE CONDEMNED.

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is a faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

CHAPTER VII.--LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

CHAPTER VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

CHAPTER IX.--HONOUR THE BISHOP.

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for ye are worthy. Ye have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. Ye have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while ye endure all things, ye shall attain unto Him.

Nothing more to be said... The answer is on the other page... And when I said "pretty accurate", it was meant with a tone to say that it was fact.

There is nothing else to go on with this dialog, Ignatius work, along with many other Bishops of his time prove you wrong.

Anyway's, sounds like your trying to argue from a Greek Orthodox point of view instead of a protestant... I find that funny.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[BLAZEr]

Anna, go read through all his letters to the different churches. He NEVER says to submit to rome, he ALWAYS says to submit to the bishop of your church. The phrase 'which presides in love' is also used only in his letter to Rome and does not indicate anything or primacy.

You have to understand something about our ecclesial structure. You seem to think that we work like a corporation with the Pope as our CEO. This is not the case at all.

Our ecclesial structure is as such:

Every bishop has complete authority for the flock in his charge. I have to submit to my Bishop, Gregory Aymand, in Austin. He is my episcopal authority. However, my bishop derives his authority out of the communion of bishops of the world. My Bishop must be careful to teach everything in accord with the communion he must be in with every other Bishop. This communion is safeguarded and guided by the Pope, who is the Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome is the visible sign of of ecclesial communion. This is why we say that we must submit to the Pope, because in a sense, he speaks for the whole. It is his pronouncements that give voice to the universal communion of Bishops. However, the Pope is not my authority in the practical sense. He really has no idea who I am, what my particular needs are, what my situation is. However, my Bishop has a greater responsibility in that regard. I can trust that my Bishop is teaching the Apostolic faith by guaging him by the the teachings of the Pope.

It's a very complex system. It doesn't do well to confuse it.

[BLAZEr]

I understand the pope is the Bishop of Rome. Now does Ignatius say "why" the church in Rome presides? You naturally assume "oh! it's because Peter's #1!" - but, Rome must preside in this context. It is the largest city, and the most powerful, and has the most authority over any of the other great churches at this point. There are many many reasons that Rome presides - and Ignatius does not say why.

Go into his ecclesiastical work now and guess what you see. Lots of documentation on the different sections and even one on the equality of bishops. What don't you see? anything on petrine dominancy. Nothing, Nada, Zilch, Cero, X.

Actually, Alexandria and Constantinople would have both made much more sense as the seat. Only because these two cities had more Christians and greater cultural influence. You don't seem to realize that although Rome was the legislative authority, it was not the center of the World in terms of thought, culture, nor faith.

No, Rome is only important because Peter goes there.

[BLAZEr]

Muhammed did as more to establish Rome as the head than any other theologian.

Yeah. Muhammed.

Bye-bye other competing power centers.

Perhaps they can sneak him in a Saint.

Grin.

c. 570: Birth of Muhammad

Are you seriously trying to be ridiculous?

Rome was well established before Muhammed was even born.