The Discalced Carmelite Nuns - 1990 & 1991 Constitutions

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='HisChild' post='1180245' date='Jan 30 2007, 10:16 AM']

When you say Mother Angelica's PCPAs, I'm going to lump all three communities in with them, AL, AZ, and OH. Last year, as Lauren can attest, they had a meeting in AL of all the PCPAs. So, there were nuns from all the monasteries, traveling to AL for this meeting. Those from OH went, (and also were there to be on EWTN), I think AZ sisters didn't go because they'd just been there, but don't quote me, and of course there were nuns from the other various PCPA communities in the country. So, yes, for certain reasons, they do travel for meetings. While the AL nuns didn't leave this year, who's to say that next meeting time, they won't be the ones doing the traveling too?
[/quote]

Phoenix came a little later

Some of the solemns from Alabama did go to visit the PCPA monasteries in Ohio this past year (Portsmouth, Canton, and Cleveland).

It creates such a fraternal spirit within the community to know the sisters from other monasteries. It even brought us closer to them when only some of our solemn-professed went, and not those in formation. They (the solemns) told us all about their experience, and the Ohio sisters "sent their love" so to speak, so it really is an awesome thing for the Order

Edited January 31, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1181303' date='Jan 31 2007, 07:58 AM']
Phoenix came a little later

Some of the solemns from Alabama did go to visit the PCPA monasteries in Ohio this past year (Portsmouth, Canton, and Cleveland).

It creates such a fraternal spirit within the community to know the sisters from other monasteries. It even brought us closer to them when only some of our solemn-professed went, and not those in formation. They (the solemns) told us all about their experience, and the Ohio sisters "sent their love" so to speak, so it really is an awesome thing for the Order
[/quote] That's great! Yeah, things like that I wouldn't mind at all as an enclosed nun. If I were a PCPA I would love to see the other houses and meet the other sisters, because they seem like such a tightly knit community of PCs with Mother Angelica and all the PCPAs, with the same Mother Foundress. Also the federation meetings might be a very good thing in this way. But I really don't think it's good if not very much gets done in them, like for the PCs, as you guys were saying .. Otherwise it doesn't seem worth it to leave the cloister and spend a lot for traveling .. The Domincan meetings sound wonderful though! Yeah, the Dominicans are supposed to be great for a solid formation. The Srs of St John & the Srs of Bethlehem, whose founders were Dominicans, greatly benefited from this strong aspect of the Dominican charism. :j I love how the Srs of Bethlehem, once you are professed, are still invited every few years to the one month retreat in August at Les Montsvoroins. I felt such a great community spirit from all the sisters from all the different monasteries and nationalities there .. :j

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

That's great! Yeah, things like that I wouldn't mind at all as an enclosed nun. If I were a PCPA I would love to see the other houses and meet the other sisters, because they seem like such a tightly knit community of PCs with Mother Angelica and all the PCPAs, with the same Mother Foundress. Also the federation meetings might be a very good thing in this way. But I really don't think it's good if not very much gets done in them, like for the PCs, as you guys were saying .. Otherwise it doesn't seem worth it to leave the cloister and spend a lot for traveling .. The Domincan meetings sound wonderful though! Yeah, the Dominicans are supposed to be great for a solid formation. The Srs of St John & the Srs of Bethlehem, whose founders were Dominicans, greatly benefited from this strong aspect of the Dominican charism. :j I love how the Srs of Bethlehem, once you are professed, are still invited every few years to the one month retreat in August at Les Montsvoroins. I felt such a great community spirit from all the sisters from all the different monasteries and nationalities there .. :j

This is one of the main reasons for meeting among monasteries: for the nuns to get to know each other, pray together,share stories, problems, ideas, spiritual life, etc. etc. It's not just about getting stuff done!
I guess, that is why ours are so beneficial. We share all the little and bit things about our life but it is rooted in our knowing more about God together.
It can be so encouraging because then we realize that we all have basically the same problems!
And I haven't even gone to an Assembly meeting yet!
Another great part of it is that when the sisters do travel they often have to stop at a monastery so you get to meet sisters you'd never met before any maybe only wrote to or talked to on the phone.
Again, if there are too many meetings than yes, it's not good for the life and for enclosure but done with prudence it's so helpful for the monasteries and their growth.

[Chiquitunga]

This is one of the main reasons for meeting among monasteries: for the nuns to get to know each other, pray together,share stories, problems, ideas, spiritual life, etc. etc. It's not just about getting stuff done!
I guess, that is why ours are so beneficial. We share all the little and bit things about our life but it is rooted in our knowing more about God together.
It can be so encouraging because then we realize that we all have basically the same problems!
And I haven't even gone to an Assembly meeting yet!
Another great part of it is that when the sisters do travel they often have to stop at a monastery so you get to meet sisters you'd never met before any maybe only wrote to or talked to on the phone.
Again, if there are too many meetings than yes, it's not good for the life and for enclosure but done with prudence it's so helpful for the monasteries and their growth.

Thanks, Sr. Mary Catharine! This is a really great comment. Yeah, I'm starting to see now how the federation meetings can really be a good thing, like the Srs of Bethlehem annual retreat. But yeah, as you were saying, if there are too many it could be harmful for the cloistered life and vocation. I know that for Carmelites, many of the monasteries in this order do like to remain autonomous, at least the ones I visited with the older constitutions, though they are always sisters in spirit with all the Carmelites all over the world. I still do really recommend the Carmels with the older constitutions, or any of the ones in St. Joseph's Association. I found each of the 1990 communities I visited and corresponded with very joyful too, just to let everyone know. But I think both ways can be beneficial really, so I think that's why the Holy Father decided to approve the older constitutions and the newer ones, and allow each monastery to decide. But yeah, I can really see your point on how the federation meetings can be so helpful and good for the spirit of each of the communities.

[Chiquitunga]

Okay, complete list of all the Discalced Carmelite Nuns under the 1990 Constitutions in the US (I forgot Littleton, CO before)
 

Here's the list again with a few links: (the first 3 have the full Divine Office in Latin)

Alexandria, SD
Brooklyn, NY
Buffalo, NY
Dallas, TX
Des Plaines, IL
Erie, PA
Flemington, NJ
Iron Mountain, MI
Jefferson City, MO
Kensington, CA
Lake Elmo, MN
Littleton, CO
Louisville, KY
Mobile, AL
Pittsford, NY (Schenectady, NY recently joined them)
Traverse City, MI
Valparaiso, NE (Indult Latin Mass & Office)

I think Georgetown, CA follows the 1990's in all ways but that they are under the General Superior of the Carmelite Order (1991's) rather than directly to the Holy Father (1990's) - Gemma told me this.

[Marieteresa]

Thanks for the extensive list...Just wondering Ada, are they under the 1991 constitution? I thought it was 1990 and I didn't know that the first three listed have the full divine office in Latin! Thats pretty cool

[Chiquitunga]

Yes, Ada Parnell is under the 1991s, but they are really the same as the 1990s. (or very very similar I should say) I haven't corresponded with them myself, but have heard this from a few others. Many of their foundations, if not all of them, are 1990 Carmels like Buffalo, Iron Mountain, Traverse City and the like. They are also an autonomous Carmel like Iron Mountain.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1192759' date='Feb 12 2007, 06:26 PM'] ... and I didn't know that the first three listed have the full divine office in Latin! Thats pretty cool
[/quote] Yeah, it is pretty awesome! The Gregorian chant of the Carmelites in Buffalo sounds like Heaven! I'm pretty sure that they pray the Latin Office of the revised rite. It is mostly all chanted, as I remember. And the books they use, have the Gregorian chant little notes. For a while I wasn't sure though, and still am not 100%, if they might actually be using the Tridentine Office .. Brendan would know though. Then for Holy Mass, they sing a lot of Latin, like the Sanctus, etc. I haven't been to Alexandria or Brooklyn, but know they have the Latin just like their founding Carmel of Buffalo.

[Chiquitunga]

Me before:

I actually didn't know any of the Poor Clares had federation meetings. I sort of always thought they couldn't because they do have the solemn vow of enclosure, while I know the Carmelites do not have that vow in particular.

Which Poor Clare federation has meetings? Does the PCCs Federation of Mary Immaculate have federation meetings?
 

Yes, they do every year and they were the first federation formed in the US, way back in the '50's.

Papal Enclosure is observed according to the norms of the Holy See and this includes egress for reasons such as Federation meetings. Verbi Sponsa also legislates for common novitiate formation among the same monasteries of an Order, etc.

Okay, I asked Mother Teresita at the Lemont Poor Clares, and she said the Fed of MI has the meetings once every 3 years. She said they always meet in a monastery (the Superior and another), but once they met at a retreat place, and they didn't like it. So they decided it's best to always having the meetings at one of the monasteries.

[Chiquitunga]

For the PCCs in IL, Lemont & Belleville are part of the Fed of MI - while Rockford and its foundation, Minooka are not. They are all still united as Colettines though.

[Chiquitunga]

I don't know of the Carmels that follow the 1990s overseas, though I know many of them are in Spain, but here's one in Sheffield, England that looks quite beautiful, wow - http://www.carmelite.org.uk/Kirkedge.html

[Chiquitunga]

Wow, here's an article from Time Magazine in 1985, about this whole Constitution thing with the OCD nuns - "Surprise and Pain in the Cloister" - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,965469,00.html

When the article refers to the Vatican rewriting the Constitutions, its referring to JPII renewing the 1581 Constitutions, ( the 1990s ) while the OCD Friars were in the process of writing the newer ones.

I had heard it was a real struggle for them for several years, but didn't think it would have been something reported in the secular media.

There's a quote from Mother John at the Schenectady Carmel, now at Pittsford, NY.

" ... to traditionalists like Mother John, prioress of a convent in Schenectady, N.Y., the language of the reformed charter "was so broad that it was not safeguarding the essential dimensions" of the Carmelite vocation."

I had heard something like this before, that the newer Constitutions don't have all the specifics as the old ones do.

But at the same time, I do really think with discerning Carmel, it really really depends on each particular community, though the 1990s are pretty much guaranteed to be very traditional.

But again, there are also some Carmels that are supposed to be pretty traditional and very good communities with many new vocations, like Ada Parnell, MI and Denmark, WI. They do always say, each Carmel is different, and has a different spirit.

Just a few thoughts & sources of information ..

[Chiquitunga]

That Time article says something about nuns in tropical climates having to wear the wool habits. But I'm sure that the 1990s definitely allow cotton habits, as at Buffalo they have both Winter and Summer habits, which I'm pretty sure are cotton.

[Chiquitunga]

Here's a clip from the History of the Buffalo Carmel booklet, just to add a few sources of information to this thread.

[url="http://imageshack.us"][img]http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5204/prioressbuffalokm1.jpg[/img][/url]


Oh, and this little clip refers to the beautiful Spanish crucifixes made at the Buffalo Carmel (possibly also at Ada Parnell, Alexandria, & Brooklyn).
Here's a link with a picture of a crucifix made at Buffalo - [url="http://www.olphnm.org/ladyicons.html"]http://www.olphnm.org/ladyicons.html[/url]

[Chiquitunga]

[img]http://www.olphnm.org/Images/jesuscru.gif[/img]