Attitude Towards The Jewish People

[iKonstantin]

It was changed because after the war it was very anti-social to be 'anti-semetic'. The Church adapts when in needs to - and it needed to.





bpat Konstantin

[Era Might]

Anti-Semitism was wrong long before the end of the war. It has always been wrong.

[quote]Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we are all Semites.

--Pope Pius XI, 1938[/quote]

[Resurrexi]

Believing that the Modern Talmudists are accursed God-killers is not antisemitism. Saying that they are evil money hoarders who are dirty and have big noses are would be tho.

[avemaria40]

If you honestly believe that Christ gave His own life to save us from our sins (which He did) you can't say that it was the Jews' fault. Because you know what? He wouldn't have died if we never sinned. Also, the Romans had their own reasons for wanting Him dead as well. He was considered a traitor to them, because people said He was King and the Romans felt threatened, they were afraid of an uprising. They were afraid that His followers would cause a disturbance and Pilate had been threatened by Caesar if he couldn't keep the people under control. He would have died whether or not He was turned in.

Watch what you say about them, those attitudes brought on the Holocaust, which killed 11 million people, more than half of them Jews, not excluding relatives of mine, as well as relatives of my friends.

The Jewish people are not accursed. They are descended from Abraham as we are and without their faith, we would not have ours. We should evangelize them but that goes for anyone who is not a Catholic. Just be charitable

Era Might, you hit the nail on the head about the graveness of anti-Semitism

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1088400' date='Oct 10 2006, 04:37 PM']
EENS,

You said this a couple of pages back.
In a sense you are right. For we are not all spiritually reborn, adopted sons and daughters. (though Cornelius is an interesting case study, as is Cyrus and the Good Samaritan) But all of man kind is in some sense his children or Paul is wrong.

Acts 17
28: for `In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, `[b]For we are indeed his offspring[/b].'
29: Being then [b]God's offspring[/b], we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.
30: The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,
31: because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

Offspring are children last I checked. This is the RSV, which I prefer. Some versions including the NAB render it children. Paul is speaking to pagan athenians here and even quotes them. So perhaps you want to tailor your statement a bit.

Blessings
[/quote]


how can I be both right and wrong?
so basically we are all offspring of God, but then we are raised to adopted sons and daughters?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1088319' date='Oct 10 2006, 01:10 PM']
Denominationalism is an ideology which views some or all Christian groups as being, in some sense, versions of the same thing regardless of their distinguishing labels. Not all churches teach this. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not use this term as its implication of interchangeability does not agree with their theological teachings. There are some groups which practically all others would view as apostate or heretical, and not legitimate versions of Christianity.

There were some movements considered heresies by the early church which do not exist today and are not generally referred to as denominations. Examples include the Gnostics (who had believed in an esoteric dualism), the Ebionites (who venerated Christ's blood relatives), and the Arians. The greatest divisions in Christianity today however are between Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and various denominations formed during and after the Protestant Reformation. There also exists in Protestantism and Orthodoxy various degrees of unity and division.[/b]
[/quote]

I assert that the idea of denominationalism is incorrect when applied to Catholicism. It is part of a greater heresy. Again, I ask you to answer the questions that I posed earlier. If all the "churches" are equal, then yes denominationalism has a place, however, not all "churches" are equal. There is one founded by Christ (Roman Catholic/Orthodox) and there are many, many others founded my men (Protestantism). When you can equate Lutheranism as a legitimate church or the Anabaptist movement as a legitimate church, then I will accept your position. However, as it stands, they are simply heresies in which people adhere.

So, answer the questions that I asked and we will be able to move forward.

The greatest divisons today don't include the Catholics and Orthodox. I disagree with that completely. The greatest divisions are in the Protestant. There are more versions of Protestantism than any Catholic/Sui Juris/Orthodox division.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='iKonstantin' post='1087093' date='Oct 8 2006, 10:47 PM']Matthew 27:25
"His blood be upon us and our children. "[/quote]

Romans 11

1
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3
"Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."
4
But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal."
5
So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6
But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7
What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened,
8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
9
And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10
let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever."
11
Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous.
12
Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.
13
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry
14
in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.
15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16
If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,
18
do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.
19
Indeed you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20
That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.
21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.
22
See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23
And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26
and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27
and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
28
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30
Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,
31
so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.
32
For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
33
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!
34
"For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?"
35
"Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?"
36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

[thessalonian]

In the spiritual sense you are right. We need to be reborn to be adopted sons and daughters of God. In the created sense you are wrong. Offspring are children. Some Catholic versions render it children. Are they wrong just to protect you from being wrong? The passage is clear.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1089003' date='Oct 11 2006, 12:46 PM']
I assert that the idea of denominationalism is incorrect when applied to Catholicism. It is part of a greater heresy. Again, I ask you to answer the questions that I posed earlier. If all the "churches" are equal, then yes denominationalism has a place, however, not all "churches" are equal. There is one founded by Christ (Roman Catholic/Orthodox) and there are many, many others founded my men (Protestantism). When you can equate Lutheranism as a legitimate church or the Anabaptist movement as a legitimate church, then I will accept your position. However, as it stands, they are simply heresies in which people adhere.

So, answer the questions that I asked and we will be able to move forward.

The greatest divisons today don't include the Catholics and Orthodox. I disagree with that completely. The greatest divisions are in the Protestant. There are more versions of Protestantism than any Catholic/Sui Juris/Orthodox division.
[/quote]

since when is the orthodox church founded by Christ?

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1089128' date='Oct 11 2006, 02:36 PM']
In the spiritual sense you are right. We need to be reborn to be adopted sons and daughters of God. In the created sense you are wrong. Offspring are children. Some Catholic versions render it children. Are they wrong just to protect you from being wrong? The passage is clear.
[/quote]

they are not wrong. i just don't see how I can be both right and wrong. Either only the Baptized are sons of God, or everyone is, not both.

[Aloysius]

if a Church has apostolic succession, its origin can be traced to being founded by Christ. its current schismatic nature was not established by Christ, but it in itself can not be said to have been founded by anyone else other than Christ.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1089511' date='Oct 11 2006, 06:26 PM']
since when is the orthodox church founded by Christ?

[/quote]

Who is considered to have founded the Church which is patriarchical to the Orthodox, Sam?

Hint: The first Apostle (The Protocletos).....He was in Byzantium in AD 38.

Is that a big enough hint?

Come on.....the Orthodox were in complete union until 1054 AD. They have legitimate Apostolic Succession. They even reconize and fully accept the first 7 Ecumenical Councils. Are you simply looking for a fight?









And I am still waiting for Anomaly to answer my post.....I stopped holding my breath though.

[Anomaly]

I answered your post. I suggested you start another thread if you want to explore it. The problem is basically you came up with the idea that 'Denomination' necessarily means 'derivative' and ignore what Webster says.

Did you bury a St. Joseph statue upside down in lieu of holding your breath? {wink}

[Cam42]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1092843' date='Oct 16 2006, 07:43 AM']
I answered your post. I suggested you start another thread if you want to explore it. The problem is basically you came up with the idea that 'Denomination' necessarily means 'derivative' and ignore what Webster says.

Did you bury a St. Joseph statue upside down in lieu of holding your breath? {wink}
[/quote]

No, I am not trying to sell a house. And I have not ignored what Webster has to say, but I am not discussing this from a strictly Protestant and secular point of view. And you have not addressed my questions yet.

Again, I assert that the idea of denominationalism is incorrect when applied to Catholicism. It is part of a greater heresy. Again, I ask you to answer the questions that I posed earlier. If all the "churches" are equal, then yes denominationalism has a place, however, not all "churches" are equal. There is one founded by Christ (Roman Catholic/Orthodox) and there are many, many others founded my men (Protestantism). When you can equate Lutheranism as a legitimate church or the Anabaptist movement as a legitimate church, then I will accept your position. However, as it stands, they are simply heresies in which people adhere.

The greatest divisons today don't include the Catholics and Orthodox. I disagree with that completely. The greatest divisions are in the Protestant. There are more versions of Protestantism than any Catholic/Sui Juris/Orthodox division.

[Anomaly]

CAM,
I think it would be in the best interests of politeness for you to badger me in a thread you started instead of hijacking this one. You are welcome to post what you think I said and make your questions or comments for me to respond to.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1093039' date='Oct 16 2006, 12:13 PM']
CAM,
I think it would be in the best interests of politeness for you to badger me in a thread you started instead of hijacking this one. You are welcome to post what you think I said and make your questions or comments for me to respond to.
[/quote]

I am hijacking nothing.....you are the one who won't deal with anything other than WEBSTER.