Chest Thumping - Jewish Style

[Bruce S]

"We are right! We have the one true understanding! Our worship in the Temple is what God wanted! I pity the poor other guy! listen to us... we are saved because we do things this way....!"

Sound familiar, were things like that included in scripture too?

I'm not talking about any particular thread here, but Jews surrounding the time of the first few years...when Jesus was alive and trying to get them to see what He was saying.

What that the REAL sins of Judaism from the perspective of Christ?

After all, they really were the "chosen race/people" beloved of God, were they not? They were offered something by God, but something went wrong with that offer.

What possible parallels to today can we find here to examine... let us all look deep into our hearts to see if we all have missed, or may be missing, what upset Jesus so much about those deeply religious, committed to THEIR faith people that were so much a part of the Bible story of Jesus and religion of that day.

I'm personally still upset with the entire world of Christianity [that is a non-denominational upset/ALL] for how much we have missed what this is all about.

Without doing the denominational pride thing, can we talk about what the errors of religion that Jews were doing, why they got there, and why Jesus spent so much time trying to counter some basic human trait that Jews were guilty of?

Edited January 11, 2004 by Bruce S

[Aloysius]

im gonna try to respond the way u asked, but i know it's gonna come up.

i think the Jews of the day were hypocrites, which is what Jesus was most angry about. He told ppl to listen to their teaching authority (for at that time He had not yet passed it over to the Apostles) but reject their actions. He was angry at them for allowing people to sell stuff even inside His Father's house. He was angry that they themselves had lost their way (while their teaching authority ex cathedra moses was still intact). They did good works only for the praise of men. the did works of the law vainly.

i tried to keep "denominantionalism" out of it. although we all know Catholocism is the NOMINATION ^_^ :P

[Bruce S]

Let me reduce this even further...

What was the MAIN "sin" of the Jew?

[phatcatholic]

Let me reduce this even further...

What was the MAIN "sin" of the Jew?

not believing that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God (is that what u were looking for?)

[Bruce S]

NO!!!

What practices, attitudes, and outlook caused Jesus to lash out against HIS own denomination?

[mulls]

pride?

[Circle_Master]

NO!!!

What practices, attitudes, and outlook caused Jesus to lash out against HIS own denomination?

placing their own traditions above Scripture - living a system that would give them grace, and not trusting in God with their hearts for that grace.

[Bruce S]

OK scripture warriors.

I survived in an online debate that lasted for six months on this one. When I "was born again" [our lingo] some friends, Jewish friends, were horrified. They thought I had gone off the deep end, actually believing what Christians do. [This one made the Catholic VS Protestant ones look tame by comparison]

That is not my point. But a frame of reference.

I was pissed beyond belief, you have NO idea how much I came to hate Jewish religous pregudice then. I understood what Jesus, Paul, and the Apostles had come face to face with. I was facing it daily myself, same people, same issues, same mentality.

That lead to a study of ROMANS, one with a new understanding of what Paul was trying to elucidate, set out, destroy, and set forth what Jesus meant, what Christianity was.

I wonder how often, we today, don't understand.

The "sins" of the faithful Jew were known by them too, internally, some were quite aware of what they were engaged in, however, the more militant of them, the one's trying the hardest to conform TOTALLY to a set of doctrine, practice, and submission to teaching authority, had lost total sight of what God had given them a covenent to cover.

They WERE blind.

But some of the things we have noted above were included in that blindness, sure pride, practice, money, were involved.

But what else? What was the MAIN sin? What frustrated God and later Jesus so much about the GOOD Jews, the ones that were LIVING what they believed that God wanted, devoting all waking hours of each day to conforming to what they honestly thought they were commanded to do?

Edited January 11, 2004 by Bruce S

[mulls]

What frustrated God and later Jesus so much about the GOOD Jews, the ones that were LIVING what they believed that God wanted, devoting all waking hours of each day to conforming to what they honestly thought they were commanded to do?

since you put it like that, i'm just gonna toss out.....

complacency. (???)

[jasJis]

Get off the denominational pride thing.

Most devout Catholics AND devout Christians of any denomination, are so out of a burning desire to follow Christ as best and completely as they can. How dare you equate it to denominational BLINDNESS?

That is why I don't like your posts, your tone. You think you are enlightening us when you are confused yourself. See with your human eyes AND with your eyes of Faith.

Jesus did not get upset with those who followed them with all their mind and strength, he wanted them to follow with their soul and heart ALSO, not instead of.

This is what I hear from you, Bruce: "God didn't mean you will Really die!" and "God didn't mean we will REALLY be one like that."

Edited January 11, 2004 by jasJis

[Bruce S]

I'm not the topic here.

The Jews are. Let's try to remember that.

So...

What did Paul think the Jews were so guilty of that God was offended by them?

[jasJis]

I'm not the topic here.

Then contribute without making your agenda the topic.

How stupid do you think we all are, Bruce? You have told us that in your opinion, Catholics are Catholic because of their "lockstep blind obedience to the Mysteium of the Catholic Church". You also charge Catholics here at phatmass as being blindly loyal to pride in denomination and with little or no regard to what Jesus really taught.

Then you start a thread about denominational chest thumping.

Your agenda IS the topic.

Edited January 11, 2004 by jasJis

[Aloysius]

i'm ignoring his agenda for now because if every single time he brings up any subject we just attack his agenda he really isn't learning anything from us now is he?

Judaism was not a denomination, although i guess you're making an analogy?

Jesus was a devout Jew, He followed every precept of the Law, that's the only reason we are no longer subject to the law but can be forgiven through Him who fulfilled every aspect of the law. if He had condemned ppl simply for following Judaism to the T He would have condemned Himself.

he didn't cry out against His "denomination" he cried out against the hypocrites of His "denomination". He declared all foods clean to emphasize that all these physical commands of the Law were intended to teach spiritual needs, and so the unclean food reminds you that you must beware of unclean thoughts and deeds that come from within.

St. Paul is letting us know that because Christ fulifilled all prophecys and gave Himself in perfect obedience to all precepts of the law, we are no longer to be judged by that law but by the law of Grace, a free gift of God, to those who try to follow God's will. No NT writer condemns the law, and they make numerous attempts to clarify they are not abolishing the law. the law is God-made and is still good, but because Christ fulfilled it we no longer must be circumicized to be covenanted to God, now all we need to is accept His grace through baptism. we no longer need to kill animal sacrifices to atone for our sins, all we need to do now is speak to those whom Christ gave power to forgive sins.

[cmotherofpirl]

Most jews were probably good God-fearing people.

THe Pharisees were a sect (denomination) of judiasm that was so concerned with the law they carried it is extremes such as those today who ban wine, or forbid TV or dancing.

They invented laws, instead of carrrying out the mitzphahs of the OT.

They were extremists such as that group we previously talked about whose kids were not allowed to have dolls in the house, because demons could take them over.

They found ways to get around carrying out the commandments, like offering all the goods to the temple to avoid taking care of their parents. And even then, not all pharisees were evil. THey thought that the more laws they had protecting the torah, the better off they would be, and the more they would be obeying the laws of God, because they considered the Law a gift from God, written down by Moses.

Most jews did not fall into this category.The jews were people waiting to be delivered from the Romans by the Messiah, and trying to get along with being an occupied nation.

When Mark and Matthew wrote their Gospels they were probably facing great opposition from these extremists. But they did not see the ordinary person as their enemy.

[BLAZEr]

Not to mention that Jesus also had problems with the Saducees who followed very few of the "laws" and mostly concerned themselves with power structures in the Jewish community.