What Kind Of Seminary Is This?

[Era Might]

Yah, I don't think the issue is someone having a drinking problem. There are a lot of Priests with a drinking problem. But, if that kind of atmosphere is fostered and exploited in the Seminary, like it's just your average fraternity house where people are encouraged to be wild, then that's a problem. A vice is something we don't want to bring into society. If someone has a vice in seminary, there should be an atmosphere that corrects the vice with moral guidance and charity.

[homeschoolmom]

I find knitting to be a good way to blow off steam...

[Norseman82]

I don't know if people remember that around this time last year we were mourning two seminarians attending St. Mary of the Lake in Mundelein who died in a car accident [i]on seminary grounds[/i] because the driver was DUI.

So yes, I do think that alcohol abuse and misuse does need to be addressed in the seminary system, because these are the leaders that will be addressing it in the Church.

[Winchester]

[quote]Please note Dave's original post was about getting drunk, underage getting drunk, making jokes that were offensive and made others uncomfortable. That is beyond the limit of being acceptable for just
about anywhere. [/quote]

I forgot the part in the Catechism that says people have the right to not be offended.

Excessive drinking (note I do not say "getting drunk") is a discipline problem. Underage drinking is not a problem in and of itself. Last I checked, the drinking age was peculiar to each government entity (arbitrary,) and there was not an age at which people magically became responsible drinkers so long as no demon rum had previously passed their innocent lips.

Offensive jokes. Well gosh, I just don't know what to do about that! I'm thinking have a special shell built that people can retreat into. Of course, a seminarian had best find one that fits in the confessional...whoo boy will he hear about them sins in that box.

Thicker skin would be the order of the day. Sex is a big issue, especially for a group of guys who are going to forgo the deed. Jokes can ease the worry. Same thing as cracking jokes on the scene of a horrible accident---you want the guy who can laugh about the problem taking care of it. The guy who can't will usually be less effective.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1088844' date='Oct 11 2006, 02:25 AM']
I forgot the part in the Catechism that says people have the right to not be offended.

Excessive drinking (note I do not say "getting drunk") is a discipline problem. Underage drinking is not a problem in and of itself. Last I checked, the drinking age was peculiar to each government entity (arbitrary,) and there was not an age at which people magically became responsible drinkers so long as no demon rum had previously passed their innocent lips.

Offensive jokes. Well gosh, I just don't know what to do about that! I'm thinking have a special shell built that people can retreat into. Of course, a seminarian had best find one that fits in the confessional...whoo boy will he hear about them sins in that box.

Thicker skin would be the order of the day. Sex is a big issue, especially for a group of guys who are going to forgo the deed. Jokes can ease the worry. Same thing as cracking jokes on the scene of a horrible accident---you want the guy who can laugh about the problem taking care of it. The guy who can't will usually be less effective.
[/quote]I'm surprised that you post that.
Your 'Catechism' does recommend that people behave in a certain manner and not cause scandal by 'normalizing' poor behavior.
Respect for the souls of others: scandal
2284[b] Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil.[/b] The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. [b]He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. [/b] Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
2285 [b][color="#990000"]Scandal takes on a particular gravity by [/color] [/b] reason of the authority of those who cause it or [b][color="#660000"]the weakness of those who are scandalized.[/[/color]b] It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.87
2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
[b]Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."[/b]88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.
2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90

I would say that these paragraphs provide the argument that people have the responsibility to not uneccessarily offend others.

Look at what Dave wrote about the drinking. It was excessive and people were getting drunk. Underage drinkers were getting drunk. In the context of a seminary, it is making a poor choice and setting a poor example for the younger persons. Drinking age is arbitrary, but designating it is the right of the Civil Athorities unless there is an overarching moral need to break the moral need to obey Civil Athority. This thread was about excessive drinking.

As far as the jokes. There is a time and a place. The jokes I say, and the language I use on a jobsite is much different than the jokes and language I use in the office or around my children. It sets an example. Jokes about jacking off with a couple of guys who are not catholic is one thing, but catholic seminarians making jokes about mortal sin in a larger social situation to the point it's scandalizing younger persons is wrong and inappropriate.

I just don't see the need to defend poor behavior in a large group of people. We can't use any language we want here on phatmass for the same reasons, a certain amount of maturity and self control is required in a seminary

[Winchester]

"Offend" and "scandal" are not synonyms. You're in treacherous territory, there. If one knows someone is led astray (into sin) by something, then one is bound to avoid that act. Being irritated or offended is not sinful.

We must avoid drunkeness. This is not a synonym for being drunk.

A law that has not the character of justice (such as our knee-jerk drinking age) does not need to be obeyed under pain of sin.

The thread is about someone's impression of the drinking. There is a vast difference between opinion and fact.

I shall repeat that seminarians making masturbation jokes is defensible as a psychological release. It's the same reason comedians make race jokes (when done for the proper purposes): humor helps.

Children do not enter the seminary. We're talking about adults.

"Others like to joke about masturbation at times"

Oh the horror! In the company of men who are called to chastity that will forbid any sexual action, one jokes about masturbation! "at times." It doesn't say "indulge," does it?

Really, the first quote is rather arrogant. I've known very good priests who had a weakness for drink, or who merely got drunk, while avoiding drunkenness. "Drunk" is a vague term. Drinking to the point of sickness is bad. Drinking to the point of hilarity is otay. Forming a habit that damages you is bad. But what we have is the opinion of one person and the statement of one person.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1088946' date='Oct 11 2006, 10:53 AM']
I shall repeat that seminarians making masturbation jokes is defensible as a psychological release.
[/quote]

Normally you are one of the voices of reason I can count on, but I have to question you here.

Without knowing the specific jokes involved (some may be borderline but yet may be able to convy a valid moral point), are these types of jokes really psychological release, or do they reinforce a childish sense of humor that should be outgrown by the time these seminarians are ordained? Do we want the sacristy to become a place for locker room humor? Do we want priests to be cracking raunchy jokes in the classroom while teaching our children?

Are there not other "psychological releases" that are available?

[Winchester]

Can we draw a distinction between cracking these jokes in front of fellow adults as opposed to children? Are seminaries entirely made up of Sacristies? I admit the possibility that jokes may go over the line, but I also submit the possibility that the complainer may be a humorless squid. I've had to work with that type, and it ain't great.

Are outlawing as immoral all off-color jokes?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1089596' date='Oct 11 2006, 09:58 PM']
Can we draw a distinction between cracking these jokes in front of fellow adults as opposed to children? Are seminaries entirely made up of Sacristies? I admit the possibility that jokes may go over the line, but I also submit the possibility that the complainer may be a humorless squid. I've had to work with that type, and it ain't great.

Are outlawing as immoral all off-color jokes?
[/quote]

I think this entire society needs a witness that you can have humor without being off-color.

[Winchester]

I believe we can have both.

One of our major taboos now is race jokes. I recently purchased a book titled "Making Friends With Black People." It's hilarious much of the time, and while not 100%, it's helped me see a few things I'd not seen before. There are those starched collars who think we should avoid all race jokes. They're wrong, and usually, they're not much fun to be around, because they find nothing humorous in human folly. Off color does not mean cruel or sadistic. I see pretty horrible stuff, and if it wasn't for truly off color jokes, I wouldn't be sane.

[Era Might]

First off, Winchester you need to change your sig. I just looked at that thing and I thought it was gonna fly at me with a broom.

Race is not a sin. Impurity is.

It depends on the nature of the "off-color" joke, but I'm not a fan of sexual jokes in general. And what I may say to one or two people in private I wouldn't necessarily say to an audience or strangers.

Like the alcoholism, it depends on the context. If they're joking about being unchaste, like "Haha, we're Seminarians and we're unchaste", then that's unacceptable. And if it's happening all the time, then something is wrong there.

Besides, since when do guys joke about themselves like that? Most impure humor is about others, not yourself. Who wants to talk about themselves with another guy?

[quote]An impure word spoken in jest may prove a scandal to others, and sometimes a word of double meaning, said in a witty way, does more harm than a word openly impure.

--St. Alphonsus Liguori[/quote]

[Anomaly]

Alphonsus was a party pooper.

Era,
Guys do make those type of jokes. After almost 30 years in construction, hiring all types of people from bank robbers, rapists, murderers, perverts, and child molestors, you get exposed to a broad spectrum of people. Sometimes people who know better do so because it makes them 'earthy, blue collar, and one of the guys'. Others do it because they know no better. I'm saddenned that seminarians show such little class or lack of effort and that it's defended.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1088946' date='Oct 11 2006, 09:53 AM']
We must avoid drunkeness. This is not a synonym for being drunk.
[/quote]
Drunkeness=state of being drunk.

One can drink without drinking to the point of drunkeness.

(As a general statement, it's a little hard to debate what was going on at that seminary and whether it was sinful, or how sinful, when none of us has actually witnessed it - this is all going on vague hearsay.)

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1089615' date='Oct 11 2006, 10:19 PM']
First off, Winchester you need to change your sig. I just looked at that thing and I thought it was gonna fly at me with a broom.
[/quote]

See - THAT is humor without going off-color!

So is opening up a business meeting with VPs at work in a Don Corleone voice, "I'd like to thank the members of the five families..."

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Masturbation isn't funny at all. Regardless of the fact that these jokes make fun of a very serious problem for many trying to live a chaste lifestyle, these seminarians need a better sense of humor!

There are a lot of clean avenues for jokes; I maintain that mushy mud pie jokes are the best!