What Kind Of Seminary Is This?

[Anomaly]

Original Post [quote]I won't name names here, but a friend of mine and fellow PMer who's now in seminary (again, I won't say which one) has just told me that so often the atmosphere seems like Animal House. He said he's seen fellow seminarians get drunk (some of whom are underage), and they don't think it's the least bit sinful. He said others like to joke about masturbation at times. So of course, he really feels scandalized by all that.

Now, I know there are numerous seminaries out there that are heterodox or which are hotbeds of gay activity. Of course, that is much worse than the type of stuff going on at this guy's seminary, but it's very upsetting nevertheless. I shudder to think what kind of priests those guys are going to be. I would hope most truly reputable seminaries wouldn't tolerate that sort of thing for a moment. At any rate, I always thought the new generation of priests was for the most part very orthodox, but now I'm not so sure.[/quote]

Comments in defense:
[quote] This seminary sounds more acceptable than most of you assume. You realize that we are halting the aging process of the youth in the first world society. Twenty-seven is 'young' to marry, and most university students are heavily involved with their parents. The youth are dependent. Alcohol and promiscuity prevail -everywhere- in our society.

Be thankful that there is no promiscuity, and that the problem is limited to alcohol... which incidentally I do not see the issue with, for the stress on a modern seminarian (if you haven't experienced, you will not understand) is so much greater than ones of the previous generations. Why deny them the little life that they live? Did not the Master chastise Martha for complaining about how her sister was lazy? If they chose to do it, don't condemn them, and if you are worried, pray for them. If you wanted to effect them (either for positive or negative, I haven't thought it out yet) send them some wine or alcohol when the exam sessions are over.

Oh an on the self-pleasuring jokes: It is a social norm, people who enter the seminary do not (unfortunatly) cease being human. And if they are guilty of it, I am fairly certain that they know that they are 'guilty' and are doing the best they can to improve themselves.

And finally;

Tell me, would you rather have an active homosexual as a shepard or one who touches himself?[/quote]
and
[quote]{i]Stress in a seminary?
Try providing for a family, taking care of a sick child, aging parents, a house, bills, etc. Deny them the little life they live? Come on. That's a frigging cake walk.[/i]
I would definitely not call it a "cake walk." Seminarians do have a lot of stress, between papers, exams, formation, apostolic assignments, meetings, and organizing major functions. Yet, that is still no excuse, that is why seminarians need to learn to be men of prayer, because much can be accomplished and much can be dealt with when the power of prayer is sustaining them.
I was not condoning it, rather, I was pointing out that seminarians do have stressful lives.[/quote]
[quote] I've done both, and from my experience, the Seminarian lifestyle is far more extreme, although I would not hesitate to saying the pastoral life is slightly less so, but even so, it takes EFFORT. I repeat EFFORT to deny yourself a family, to deny yourself a monatery job, to lift yourself off of the social supports and relying on your laity to keep you fed. It is called Humility, and I think I am going to write a lecture on it now. Thank you for your obtusiviness, for it has inspired me. May the Master forgive your ignorance.

Also, it was not stated that these men are drunks. It says that they were drunk. There is an extreme difference. A good rule of thumb is that if they are not able to drive for more than 1/8th of their concious time, they are drunks. I would hope that a seminarian is never drunk more than 1/52th of the time, or even under the influence. Though, the Eastern Churches use strong wine for the Pascha...[/quote]
I had responded with:
Over-indulgence of alcohol is not acceptable, no matter what the excuse.

Stress in a seminary?
Try providing for a family, taking care of a sick child, aging parents, a house, bills, etc. Deny them the little life they live? Come on. That's a frigging cake walk.

Also, I'm disappointed to hear that this seminary is better than most. I thought it was typical of the really bad ones. And here I thought I was being cynical, but I was really being a Polly Anna.

The catholic X is even further out of touch with Christian norms than what I thought.

We all have stressful lives. Even a college student believes his life cannot be anymore stressful. As many problems as I have to deal with, I don't have a wife with leukemia. I wanted to make it clear that 'cutting some slack, let them get drunk' for stress is b.s. If you want to be a priest, smell of elderberries it up, don't say t he stress is too much. If you want to be a dad, smell of elderberries it up, don't say not getting sleep w/ a sick kid is too much.

Of course. Hitting a few, coming over for dinner and a few beers, going camping with the boy scouts & playing cards and drinking scotch with the men. Been there, done that. They're humans.

Getting drunk and acting beyond decency. No. I have higher standards for myself, and the adults I'm around. It's not okay to justify it with 'stress'.

I thought it best to disagree on the debate board, not open-mic.

[homeschoolmom]

I haven't really read that Open Mic thread... or the quotes you posted... But I agree that I don't think seminary is that much more stressful than many other life situations. Is it a cakewalk? Um, I doubt it. but IMHO stess is not an excuse to act like an idiot... for anyone.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Seminary isn't a cakewalk. Seminarians work hard (or they should). However, that's no excuse.

[Anomaly]

I qualified the 'cakewalk' as being relative:
"Compared to the stresses that other people have to face in raising and caring for a family and are expected to do so without 'escaping' to alcohol and drugs, the stresses of being a seminarian is a cakewalk. In other words, if you broke your leg and another person has 3rd degree burns, the broke leg is a cakewalk compared to burns. I'm not saying either are easy, but it's not an excuse for guys (including underage guys) to drink and get drunk."
Got another defense?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

What is there to debate? Don't we all agree...:

Seminary and lay life are both hard. Debating which is harder is trivial. It doesn't matter where you are, drowning stress by over-indulging in alcohol is unexceptable. Drinking underage is not acceptable at all.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='thedude' post='1085303' date='Oct 5 2006, 09:20 PM']
What is there to debate? Don't we all agree...:

Seminary and lay life are both hard. Debating which is harder is trivial. It doesn't matter where you are, drowning stress by over-indulging in alcohol is unexceptable. Drinking underage is not acceptable at all.
[/quote]Exactly. That's what surprises me. Especially if you believe you are called by God to be a priest and and example of christian virtues. Isn't that part of the idea that Jesus was trying to explain regarding the Apostles when he said that they shouldn't lord over others like the gentile Kings? I think it was about leading by example. When you screw up, admit you screw up and not make excuses or justify it or become complacent and accepting of it. These people are going to provide spiritual counseling to others.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Anomaly

[iKonstantin]

If you would copy my answer from Open Mic, I would appreciate it.

[Winchester]

So seminarians can't make jokes.

The age limit for drinking is arbitrary and has not the character of serious laws. Drinking in moderation is morally permissible, in spite of what the state says.

[avemaria40]

No one should be getting drunk, no matter how stressed they are. I'm a senior in high school, trying to get college apps done, juggling 3 AP and 2 Honors classes, a ton of extracurriculars, a long distance relationship, typical senior "stuff" (superlatives, pictures, planning Homecoming, etc) and my faith life and I'm not getting drunk.

However, as long as they are over 21, I don't see the problem if they are drinking in moderation. As for the dirty jokes, they should watch what they say and stay pure and I know that's something I have to work on. We all laugh at things we probably shouldn't laugh at but we should be careful.

[iKonstantin]

[quote name='avemaria40' post='1086215' date='Oct 7 2006, 12:55 PM']
No one should be getting drunk, no matter how stressed they are. I'm a senior in high school, trying to get college apps done, juggling 3 AP and 2 Honors classes, a ton of extracurriculars, a long distance relationship, typical senior "stuff" (superlatives, pictures, planning Homecoming, etc) and my faith life and I'm not getting drunk.

However, as long as they are over 21, I don't see the problem if they are drinking in moderation. As for the dirty jokes, they should watch what they say and stay pure and I know that's something I have to work on. We all laugh at things we probably shouldn't laugh at but we should be careful.
[/quote]

College applications are not difficult, long distance relationships have a tendancy of being redundant, 'pictures' seems rather temporary etc etc. The only things worth mentioning in your spiel was the classes you are taking, the extracurricular and the faith. I will admit that I didn't consume liqour until after I graduated, but life only gets harder, I would tell you this - enjoy what little harmless pleasure there are while they still be. The ball only gets heavier.




brat Konstantin

[Winchester]

[quote]I'm a senior in high school, trying to get college apps done, juggling 3 AP and 2 Honors classes, a ton of extracurriculars, a long distance relationship, typical senior "stuff" (superlatives, pictures, planning Homecoming, etc) and my faith life and I'm not getting drunk.
[/quote]

Wow, that's a lot of stuff.

Then again, you picked up that rucksack.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='iKonstantin' post='1086544' date='Oct 7 2006, 09:54 PM']
College applications are not difficult, long distance relationships have a tendancy of being redundant, 'pictures' seems rather temporary etc etc. The only things worth mentioning in your spiel was the classes you are taking, the extracurricular and the faith. I will admit that I didn't consume liqour until after I graduated, but life only gets harder, I would tell you this - enjoy what little harmless pleasure there are while they still be. The ball only gets heavier.
brat Konstantin
[/quote]
True, life does get more difficult and more complicated as we get older.... but usually we get stronger and better equipped to handle it. Please don't look at the life that a teen struggles with and what they go through and dismiss it as not difficult. As adults, we can look at it and think that it's nothing to complain about compaired to our lives. But for them it can be a heavy burden.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1086675' date='Oct 8 2006, 07:54 AM']
True, life does get more difficult and more complicated as we get older.... but usually we get stronger and better equipped to handle it. Please don't look at the life that a teen struggles with and what they go through and dismiss it as not difficult. As adults, we can look at it and think that it's nothing to complain about compaired to our lives. But for them it can be a heavy burden.[/quote]Exactly! Using drugs or alcohol to 'escape', 'lighten the load', etc., can very easily add to your problems and is not maturely addressing your problems. Us elders are stronger at handling our carp becasue we have built up our experience and confidence by dealing with the heavy burden of school, job, dating, parents, becoming independent, looking for direction in life,... As soon as you start believing you deserve that buzz, deserve that high, and need to escape to deal w/ it, you are heading in the wrong direction.
Been there, puked on the t-shirt.
Having a few drinks on occaision is fine, getting drunk isn't. Joking around is fine, making others uncomfortable isn't. What's passable in construction language isn't acceptable at the dinner table or a seminary.
Please note Dave's original post was about getting drunk, underage getting drunk, making jokes that were offensive and made others uncomfortable. That is beyond the limit of being acceptable for just
about anywhere. They've chosen to be seminarians and are in the seminary. It's not a few close friends on the back porch who know each other well and are getting a little too toasty who aren't giving another a poor example or offending or scandalizing them. Sheesh. You catholics need to read your own catechism sometimes.

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]Everyone should just to go SJV at St. Thomas!
Its the best seminary ever!
[/size]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1086686' date='Oct 8 2006, 08:39 AM']
Exactly! Using drugs or alcohol to 'escape', 'lighten the load', etc., can very easily add to your problems and is not maturely addressing your problems. Us elders are stronger at handling our carp becasue we have built up our experience and confidence by dealing with the heavy burden of school, job, dating, parents, becoming independent, looking for direction in life,... As soon as you start believing you deserve that buzz, deserve that high, and need to escape to deal w/ it, you are heading in the wrong direction.
Been there, puked on the t-shirt.
Having a few drinks on occaision is fine, getting drunk isn't. Joking around is fine, making others uncomfortable isn't. What's passable in construction language isn't acceptable at the dinner table or a seminary.
Please note Dave's original post was about getting drunk, underage getting drunk, making jokes that were offensive and made others uncomfortable. That is beyond the limit of being acceptable for just
about anywhere. They've chosen to be seminarians and are in the seminary. It's not a few close friends on the back porch who know each other well and are getting a little too toasty who aren't giving another a poor example or offending or scandalizing them. Sheesh. You catholics need to read your own catechism sometimes.
[/quote]
Ditto. The issue here was seminarians regularly [b]getting drunk[/b], not just the age of the drinkers.

And the unfortunate fact is that alcoholism is a serious (though not often discussed) problem among the clergy.
Bad habits existing in the seminary will not necessarily simply disappear once the candidate is ordained.
Alcohol abuse in the seminary should be dealt with seriously, rather than simply be winked at.

Edited October 9, 2006 by Socrates