Help Interpreting This

[hopeful1]

I think i accidently posted this in the Q&A section (although i'm sure that was a good place to accidently put it ) but i thought maybe you guys might be able to help give some input as well.


awhile back i was working with a protestant classmate that goes to a church with an anti-Catholic pastor. After finding out i was Catholic, she emailed me this bible passage which her church uses to attack the authority of Catholic doctrine and asked me what my thoughts were on it. However, me being a little bit bibically illiterate in the way of background knowledge, i'm not really sure how to defend it.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to qa perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be rchildren, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:11-16)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

My defense would be this:

1. The Catholic Church has withstood for 2000 years with the same doctrines she has always had. This is most certainly consistent with the verse and inconsistent with being blown around by every sort of doctrine.

2. The Catholic Church has consistently had apostles (and their successors, the bishops), prophets (the saints, prophets by word or deed), evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

3. It is men who are called to teach this. Anyone can accuse them of using trickery, but since they are doing the work St. Paul himself did, in the roles St. Paul himself addressed above, then it seems they are spreading Christ's doctrines, not their own, and most certainly not through trickery. Just because one can make an accusation against a group ("they are deceivers!")and further that accusation by making an even bigger accusation ("not only are they deceivers, but they are the ones St. Paul spoke of!") doesn't mean that the accusation can actually be applied to the group. We know, in this case, that it can't. Using this passage against the Church ultimately hinges on one premise: not that the verse is true (we know that it is), but that it is referring to Catholicism. It's the fallacy of begging the question. They've claimed that [i]if[/i]something is true, then such and such, but they haven't actually laid a foundation to prove that it's true. Ultimately, the question they must be asked is this: how do they claim that the Catholic Church is deceiving people? A child's answer of "because" just won't work.

That's the negation of the argument they seem to be making. On the positive side, we see that St. Paul is actually reinforcing the Catholic idea of the Magisterium here by showing that some are called to be teachers. If there are teachers, there must be students. That means that there is a hierarchy. Furthermore, we see in this verse that this hierarchy is meant to preserve the truth. This is what the Church does.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Raphael

[jswranch]

(You did not post the objection or argument against Catholicism, you just quoted scripture.)

There is nothing in scripture contrary to Catholic teaching.

There is no Catholic teaching contrary to scripture.

The bible is the most Catholic Book ever written.



Check out some great Catholic Apologetics talks from EWTN's John Martignoni at [url="http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download"][u]Bible Christian Society[/u][/url]

If an anti-Catholic places a scripture infront of you proving the Catholic Church in error, state "I believe Eph 4:11-16 100%!!. I just disagree with your fallible interpretation of such passage." If you look closely at the scripture, it either does not say what they say it says, or the scripture contradicts an inaccurate portayal of Catholic doctrine.

[thessalonian]

Where exactly does she see a problem in that passage with the Catholic Church?

[quote]that we should no longer be rchildren, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the [/quote]

Look in a phone book at all the denominations and tell me who has been carried about by every wind of doctrine while the Catholic doctrine can be shown to be consistent over 2000 years. Tell me which men (and their trickery) "invented the Catholic doctrines that she finds objectionable? You can't name a source. That is because it goes all the way back to Christ and the Apostles. Yet we know who started Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. We can put a name on these doctrines. We know who started Lutheranism and Calvinism and the Presbyterians and Methodists and Baptists, etc. etc. Who started the Catholic Church? Constantine? Sorry doesn't hold water. No Catholic doctrines can be attributed to him. The Papacy and Eucharist and confession of sins, Bishops Authority, and succession, baptismal regeneration can EASILY be shown to predate him.

Christ is the head of our Church (as stated in the Catechism) but that does not mean he did not leave leaders. God works in and through men. In fact heb 13:17 "obey and submit to your leaders who have concern for your souls" proves that he did. Also says in Titus I think "Those who rule well deserve a greater share of the reward". The context is religous rulers.
Jer 3:15 says "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". Not of 1000 differnt denominations (blown about by every wind of doctrine) and doctrines but the one truth that saves.

So my question is does the verse do damage to us or is she missing something that is as plain as the nose on her face that she cannot see? Quite clearly the lattter.

Hope that helps

God bless

Thess

Edited October 5, 2006 by thessalonian