The Eucharist Controversy

[Aloysius]

how come Jesus told His Apostles they could forgive or retain sins? if they could choose to forgive or retain a sin, they havta know what it is.

he's saying the you misunderstand us and think that we claim every priest teaches everything correctly. we claim that the Bishops united with the Pope, are prevented from leading the Church into error.

[Circle_Master]

he's saying the you misunderstand us and think that we claim every priest teaches everything correctly. we claim that the Bishops united with the Pope, are prevented from leading the Church into error.

Why doesn't someone therefore define what apostolic authority is? Scripture is clear that this is given only to someone who has seen the resurrected Lord, and the signs of it are miracles and wonders. Not 1 in 400 years, but daily events, constant power. They obviously do not have this today - so if anything you are saying they only took the 'office' of apostle. But without the benefits Christ gave - that is pointless because they are only man. You can't pick and choose apostolic parts.

[BLAZEr]

I have this misunderstanding? I don't claim that all my bishops have apostolic authority, you do. If a bishop has apostolic authority, then he is an apostle, and you shall see his signs of a true apostle (2 Cor 12:12) - if he does not, he is not an apostle, and he does not have any authority except that of a hierarchy.

Isn't Paul here referring to Love? His entire complaing against the Corinthians has been that they look too much to manifestations of the Spirit, to tongues and prophecy and such, and not enough to Love. In fact, I seem to recall in his first letter to the Corinthians he spends most of his time teaching them that all their gifts are nothing if they don't have love.

Then, in most of the second letter he spends his time trying to explain to them that he loves them and he has suffered for them. In fact, just a few verses before 12:12 he is busy telling them how he is made great in weakness and how he has a thorn in his side.

Paul says "I have been a fool! You forced me to it, indeed you should have been teh ones commending me, for I am not at all inferior to these super apostles, even though I am nothing. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, signs and wonders and mighty works." Isn't he referring to the fact that they don't seem to want to listen to him because he hasn't spoken in tongues and made prophecy, like the Apostles they want? He is saying to them that he has in fact, WITH UTMOST PATIENCE, performed signs and wonders and mighty works such as suffering and love . . . It doesn't seem like utmost patience is needed to speak in tongues.

I don't go to confession to a man, I go to confession to God - that is a low blow.  Confession is so...  menial in my mind anyway.  I acknowledge my sin before God, and I do repent, but listing them?  We are sinful beyond our wildest imagination, and it is so nieve to think we could actually list them - even our motives when confessing can be sinful

During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 8:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8).

Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

[Circle_Master]

Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

Some problems with this -

Your form of confession required one to list their sins - Jesus merely said 'your sins are forgiven'.

Isaiah had his sins forgiven in a vision by God directly - yet no man in Israel could do this

To tie this into the signs of an apostle (Mt 9:2-8):

And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven." And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming." But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. 8When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Your priest may say they have the apostolic ability to forgive sins, but the weaker thing is healing a physical ailment immediately. If that is not possible by them, which it was by the signs of a true apostle, then how are you to trust them on any authority?

[Aloysius]

physical healing IS possible for them

it's not necessary. Paul didn't want these people being tricked by Jews pretending to be apostles and the like, and it was the time of abundant Miracles for the Son of God had just recently ascended into Heaven, so Paul advised to only trust the ones who were performing miraculous signs. times are different now, true Christian teaching is easier taught to the masses so we are less fearful of people being taught wrong without the chance to find out they're wrong through the Church. therefore, we are not as much in need of such miracles to confirm us that these are apostles. If the Church suddenly had no way of speaking to the faithful throughout the world, i bet signs of the ture apostles would show forth more clearly again.

[BLAZEr]

Some problems with this -

Your form of confession required one to list their sins - Jesus merely said 'your sins are forgiven'.

Isaiah had his sins forgiven in a vision by God directly - yet no man in Israel could do this

No man could do it until Christ. And he, if you read John, gave this authority to his Apostles. You don't have to take Christ's word for it if you don't want to . . . but what else could he mean when he says "If you forgive eh sins of any, they are forgiven them, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."? He is breathing on the Apostles and giving them this authority . . . you can ignore the breathing on of the Holy Spirit, but it seems sill to me, since its all right there in the Bible

To tie this into the signs of an apostle (Mt 9:2-8):

And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven." And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, "This man is blaspheming." But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home. 8When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Your priest may say they have the apostolic ability to forgive sins, but the weaker thing is healing a physical ailment immediately.  If that is not possible by them, which it was by the signs of a true apostle, then how are you to trust them on any authority?

Here you are just reading the passge of scripture wrong. What does Christ say . . .he says 'What is easier to SAY "Your sins are forgiven" or to say "rise and walk?""

Obviously its HARDER to say "Rise and walk" because if the person doesn't rise and walk, then the person who said it looks like a fool. Christ is performing the more impressive act of PHYSICAL healing to demonstrate that he ALSO has the authority to forgive sin. And you can trust them on their authority because Christ ALSO forgave the sins of those who did not get PHYSICAL healings . . like the woman at the well, and the woman caught in adultery.

[Circle_Master]

Here you are just reading the passge of scripture wrong. What does Christ say . . .he says 'What is easier to SAY "Your sins are forgiven" or to say "rise and walk?""

Obviously its HARDER to say "Rise and walk" because if the person doesn't rise and walk, then the person who said it looks like a fool. Christ is performing the more impressive act of PHYSICAL healing to demonstrate that he ALSO has the authority to forgive sin. And you can trust them on their authority because Christ ALSO forgave the sins of those who did not get PHYSICAL healings . . like the woman at the well, and the woman caught in adultery.

The point of it is that the authority Christ has can do both, and the authority the Apostles had can do both. And no, Aloysius, your priest cannot heal like the apostles did. If you say they are successors to the apostles, they are successors to the full package - not just the parts that are easy to do. The apostles only were those who had first seen the resurrected Lord in the flesh, and the apostles also could forgive sin, and the apostles could also heal and perform wonders such as blinding men. This was all given to the apostles, and yet you claim to have successors of these who have nothing except the 'I can forgive your sins' part.

[jasJis]

Successors of authority does not also mean successor of all the gifts, either. You create your own arbitrary standard of measure by saying they must be able to heal. Satan also told Jesu that He could throw Himself off a cliff and not be dashed upon the rocks.

If they were successors of the Apostles, they could heal.

If He is the Son of God, He wouldn't come to harm.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Why doesn't someone therefore define what apostolic authority is? Scripture is clear that this is given only to someone who has seen the resurrected Lord

sooo Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins so that people can go directly to God? hmm..seem kinda moot to do something like this.

And the Apostle does not have to be someone that has seen the resurrected Lord, as I recall St. Paul didnt have to.

CatholicAndFanatical

[Circle_Master]

Successors of authority does not also mean successor of all the gifts, either.  You create your own arbitrary standard of measure by saying they must be able to heal.  Satan also told Jesu that He could throw Himself off a cliff and not be dashed upon the rocks.

So you are saying they are.. 'half apostles'?

If they were successors of the Apostles, they could heal.

If He is the Son of God, He wouldn't come to harm.

bad analogy - Jesus is fully God, and fully man. Jesus came to die.

That's like saying..

Solomon was the next king after David, but Solomon couldn't make laws. He didn't have all the ability that went with the office.

And the Apostle does not have to be someone that has seen the resurrected Lord, as I recall St. Paul didnt have to.

Paul saw the resurrected Lord. And it is a clear requirement for the one chosen in Acts 1:22.

Edited January 11, 2004 by Circle_Master

[BLAZEr]

The point of it is that the authority Christ has can do both, and the authority the Apostles had can do both.  And no, Aloysius, your priest cannot heal like the apostles did.  If you say they are successors to the apostles, they are successors to the full package - not just the parts that are easy to do.  The apostles only were those who had first seen the resurrected Lord in the flesh, and the apostles also could forgive sin, and the apostles could also heal and perform wonders such as blinding men.  This was all given to the apostles, and yet you claim to have successors of these who have nothing except the 'I can forgive your sins' part.

No, our priests do have the authority and can heal the body. It still happens. But if you read the New Testament, it is not the point of the New Testament that people perform acts of physical healing . . . you don't really think that is the point of the Apostle's mission in the New Testament do you? The Apostle's mission, and their authority which is handed down, is primarily their teaching mission. Christ didn't say "Go therefore and heal the physcial illness of all the nations" He said "Go therefore and teach all nations baptising them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Yes, signs and wonders did accompany the Apostles, and they still accompany the apostles today, but they are not the point. In fact, they are hardly the point. The point is the Clear preaching mission to make Christ known, loved, and served.

In fact, you would do well to remember Simon the Magician . . . he could heal, but he did not have the authority of the Apostles, and they made that very clear.