Is The Sacrifice Of The Eucharist In The Bible?

[Mitchell_b55]

[size=2][font="Verdana"][center][color="#990000"][b]Is the Sacrifice of the Eucharist in the Bible?[/b][/color]
A Dialogue on Real Presence - Sola Scriptura[/center]

I was unable to respond over the weekend. I have seen a recent post, by a new member with an intriguing name. I offer whatever dust has been shaken into my empty skull.

I did not read the entire argument that was posed and disputed by Sola Scriptura, for or against. However, I feel that my two cents would be well placed, since they aren't doing well with Budge, who completely disregards me as having to "perform mental back flips" to justify my position. Sheesh!

We must begin by admitting what Augustine admitted, that "The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New"

[b]The Old Testament Prophecies [/b]

In [b]Genesis 14: 18[/b], we see a very interesting verse, "But Melchisedek the king of Salem, bringing forth bread and wine, for he was the priest of the most high God"

Now this is the first instance in the Old Testament that the word "priest" is used, and one must also admit that this priest, offered a sacrifice of Bread and Wine to God. This foreshadows the sacrifice of Christ, who was of the order of Melchisedek. In [b]Psalms 109: 4[/b], we read "Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedek." If one has issues with the nature of Christ's priesthood, St. Thomas Aquinas will be found sufficient. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/402206.htm"]Summa Theologia on the Melchizedekian Priesthood[/url]

In [b]Psalm 76:2[/b], Melchizedek is the king of Salem, which in the future will be titled [Jeru]-[Salem]. This is where Jesus Christ the Messiah, the eternal priest and king, will established his new Kingdom and the Eucharistic sacrifice which He offered under the appearance of bread and wine. Again, the Old Testament foreshadows the events of the New. "In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion."

In [b]Malachi 1:11[/b] we read, "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts."

In this is a prophecy of a "clean oblation" that will be offered in "every place" from the "rising of the sun" to the" going down". Only one sacrifice will be offered, but it will be offered in "every place." This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Holy Catholic Church in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass every day, around the world. Here the sacrifice of Christ, which transcends time and space, is offered for our salvation. If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Holy Catholic Church, can we then assume that Malachi is a false prophet, and that the Scriptures bear stain of error?

In these scriptural passages, Exodus 12: 14, 17, 24; cf. 24:8, we discover that the feast of the paschal lamb is a perpetual ordinance, and while it lasts eternally, it is not at the time of Exodus fulfilled.

[b]Exodus 12: 14[/b] -"And this day shall be for a memorial to you: and you shall keep it a feast to the Lord in your generations with an everlasting observance."

[b]Exodus 12: 17[/b] -"And you shall observe the feast of the unleavened bread: for in this same day I will bring forth your army out of the land of Egypt, and you shall keep this day in your generations by a perpetual observance."

[b]Exodus 12: 24[/b] -" Thou shalt keep this thing as a law for thee and thy children for ever."

[b]Exodus 24: 8[/b] -" And he took the blood and sprinkled it upon the people, and he said: This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words."

In [b]Jeremiah 33: 18[/b], we read "Neither shall there be cut off from the priests and Levites a man before my face to offer holocausts, and to burn sacrifices, and to sacrifice continually." God assures us that His earthly kingdom will consist of a sacrificial priesthood forever. Do your Protestant Ministers offer a sacrifice?

Now who is has the ability to offer the sacrifice so that it is pleasing to God, in [b]II Chronicles 26: 18[/b] " Withstood the king and said: It doth not belong to thee, Ozias, to burn incense to the Lord, but to the priests, that is, to the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated for this ministry: go out of the sanctuary, do not despise: for this thing shall not be accounted to thy glory by the Lord God." Here we note that only those "consecrated for this ministry" will be able to offer the sacrifice to God. Remember that incense was an offering.

[b]I could go on and on about Old Testament prophecies that demand that we consume that sacrifice, but I will limit myself to a list of passages, notice that all of the sacrifices in these passages must be consumed[/b]:

Gen. 22: 9-13
Exodus 12: 5 [Christ is without blemish.]
Exodus 12: 7, 22-23 [Compare the two door posts with the cross.]
Exodus 12: 8, 11 [What did the Hebrew people have to do to be passed over?]
Exodus 12: 43-45; Ezek. 44: 9 [Why are non-Catholics denied communion?]
Exodus 12: 49 [What replaced circumcision?]
Exodus 12: 47; Num. 9: 12 & John 19: 33 [What was not allowed to be broken?]
Exodus 29: 33 [What are we to do with those things with which atonement was made?]
Gen. 9: 4-5; Deut.12: 16, 23-24; Lev. 17: 11, 14 [In these verses what are we forbidden to consume because it is the life of the flesh, what are we then commanded to drink because it is the source of true life?].

There are numerous other references in regard to this "need to consume" the real flesh of the sacrifice.

[b]That is all for now,[/b]

I will move onto the New Testament which has a prolific abundance of scriptural support for the Real Presence. One of the early things that turned me to Catholicism was the fact that Catholics believed in transubstantiation which was something I found Scripture demanded, but so many people denied it in the Protestant Denominations that it was amazingly evident they could not fathom the "real presence" since it appears to be against the laws of nature. The central point to this matter is this: Do you deny that God has the supernatural ability to make bread and wine, flesh and blood? Christ tells his apostles as they looked dumb-founded at him, "the spirit gives life." This means that the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

I am a huge proponent of the use of Gods "logos" in discovering the truth, both revelation and reason. Neither can lead us to any firm conclusions without the other, thus both are essential. Nonetheless, some things are mysteries which our reason cannot overcome, God has allowed us a sufficient understanding, that we may with ease have faith in Him. Reason bolsters revelation, revelation guides reason. And reason also gives us a foundation in which we may accept those things which we cannot explain, nor have the right or authority to. Revelation tells us what to believe in these instances and we shouldn't try to rationalize in a way that makes sense to us.

As I said at a later date, possibly tomorrow and the days following, I will begin to provide an intense scriptural dissertation in support of the real presence. I hope that you may join me Sola Scriptura in this. I have immediately noticed that you have a Christian disposition, unlike Budge, and I feel that you will at least consider the points made. I ask you to pray for the grace to see the truth.

[b]When studying scripture I recommend a form of study know as "Lectio Divina," or Divine Reading[/b]:

[color="#990000"][1][/color] Lectio [Read] - "Looking on Holy Scripture with all one's will and wit."

[color="#990000"][2] [/color] Meditatio [Meditate] - "A studious in searching with the mind to know what was before concealed through desiring proper skill."

[color="#990000"][3][/color] Oratio [Pray] - "A devout desiring of the heart to get what is good and avoid what is evil."

[color="#990000"][4] [/color] Contemplatio [Contemplate] - "The lifting up of the heart to God tasting somewhat of the heavenly sweetness and savor."

[color="#990000"][Statio][/color] When beginning to study scripture, find a restful and calm area, somewhere you feel comfortable. This should be an atmosphere that will allow you to concentrate, without overexerting yourself.

[b]I recommend the following prayer[/b]:

My God, I firmly believe that Thou art here present, and I humbly adore Thee in union with the angels and saints.[color="#990000"]*[/color] I am sorry for having sinned, because thou art infinitely good and sin displeases Thee. I love Thee above all things with my whole heart. I offer Thee all that I am and all that I have, - my soul with all it's faculties, my body with all it's senses. Enlighten my understanding and inflame my will, that I may know and do what is pleasing to Thee. I beseech Thee to direct all the powers of my soul, all my thoughts and affections to Thy service and Thy glory as well as to my own sanctification and salvation.

[color="#990000"][1][/color] You may feel it trifling, but in the practice of Lectio Divine, we trace a cross on the Scriptures and then kiss it. We should remember Peter's admonitions:

"no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation" [2 Peter 1:20]

"which the unlearned and unstable wrest ... to their own destruction" [2 Peter 3:16].

When reading we should look for the actual meaning of words, and the historical cultural context of these words, the etymologies. We should try to find a good concordance which helps to explain the Greek and Hebrew texts, and learning a little Latin never hurt.

[color="#990000"][2][/color] Now we meditate on the scripture, we aresearching the depths of spirituality contained there in, we look for the anagogocal [or eschatalogical] sense the typical [or allegorical] portrayal of the individual words, and the combinations of words. We focus on types, antitypes, foreshadowing, and symbolism.

[color="#990000"][3][/color] Then, we beg God to for the grace to be altered by what we have read, to guide us to the perfection he wishes for us, and to assist us by understanding the tropological [or moral] sense of the Scripture.

[color="#990000"][4] [/color] We rest in gratitude to God and His Word.

[color="#990000"][Collatio][/color] We discuss what we have learned with others.

[color="#990000"][Actio] [/color] We conform our lives to what we have learned.

[center]----[/center]

[color="#990000"]*[/color] This shouldn't damage your mentality as we are "adore" -ing in "union with," not praying to. As for vain repetitions, Christ prayed the same prayer three times in the Garden, and commanded us to pray the Our Father. Those who pray in vain repetitions are those who believe that by the very words that are repeated they will be heard, and that no intention is needed.

[center]----[/center]

Sola Scriptura, I am not asking you to agree with me, but I am asking that you join me in discovering the truth of the matter. No one should be so quick to assume that they are, on their own merits, correct. I have faith in Christ and in the Church of Christ, thus I defend them. You will do likewise with your belief in Scripture. However, I am willing to discuss the matter and I respect your belief.

I believe that we should start with brass tacks. I would ask that you respond to the foreshadowing of the [b]Old Testament [/b] without getting into the [b]New Testament[/b]. We should take this one step at a time. Great leaps often present difficulty in landing where we ought.

There is a fairly old saying, we judge the world as we are, not as it is. We should be careful to look for the truth, not what we mold into the truth.

I would be thankful if you would offer me the courtesy of a diligent and mutual dialogue to come to a distinct conclusion. I would ask others on this Discussion Forum, to remain in debate with Sola Scriptura in the other Thread. I would like to discuss this specifically with Sola Scriptura, alone. Budge, that means you, if you wish to dis. the Eucharist, please do so on your own time.

This topic calls for mutual respect. Realize that to argue effectively you must not insult the Eucharist, since it will be stawartly defended as the Body of Christ. I will also not insult your belief in Sola Scriptura, whether I disagree with it or not.

I will be able to respond until 7:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, after that you must wait until 10:30 A.M. on the morrow. May we proceed?

Before beginning I 'recommend' that we pray. However, do so in your own manner, at your own discretion.[/font][/size]

Edited October 2, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[cosiegirl]

Wow, I feel very badly that you took so much time to write all of that down, but I do not have the time to go through this discussion with you. I am sorry.

I have no doubt in my mind that my faith is 100% correct. I have a strong relationship with God and see him at work in my life. He has revealed himself through his Word and has given me nothing but confidence in my standing with him.

So not only do I not have time for this discussion, but it would be pointless since I will never be convinced. God lead me away from the Catholic Church, I have no doubt of that.

Again, I am sorry that you took the time to put this nice post together and I appreciate you reaching out to me. But I would be wasting your time and mine if I continued.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

In the words of Martin Buber, "but what if?"

[MilesChristi]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082369' date='Oct 2 2006, 09:31 PM']
Wow, I feel very badly that you took so much time to write all of that down, but I do not have the time to go through this discussion with you. I am sorry.

I have no doubt in my mind that my faith is 100% correct. I have a strong relationship with God and see him at work in my life. He has revealed himself through his Word and has given me nothing but confidence in my standing with him.

So not only do I not have time for this discussion, but it would be pointless since I will never be convinced. God lead me away from the Catholic Church, I have no doubt of that.

Again, I am sorry that you took the time to put this nice post together and I appreciate you reaching out to me. But I would be wasting your time and mine if I continued.
[/quote]

Well, since you're 100% convinced that your faith is correct and ours is in error, please [i]do[/i] take the time to share the Truth by refuting what has been presented. If you think you have the light, don't put it under a basket. Tell us why you think petrus_scholasticus is wrong. If you're not willing to engage in dialogue, what exactly do you hope to accomplish on this forum?

"Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you" (1 Peter 3:15).

[eddieloudog]

Nice post petrus! Please continue with the posts! They are most enlightening!

[Dave]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082369' date='Oct 2 2006, 09:31 PM']
Wow, I feel very badly that you took so much time to write all of that down, but I do not have the time to go through this discussion with you. I am sorry.

I have no doubt in my mind that my faith is 100% correct. I have a strong relationship with God and see him at work in my life. He has revealed himself through his Word and has given me nothing but confidence in my standing with him.

So not only do I not have time for this discussion, but it would be pointless since I will never be convinced. God lead me away from the Catholic Church, I have no doubt of that.

Again, I am sorry that you took the time to put this nice post together and I appreciate you reaching out to me. But I would be wasting your time and mine if I continued.
[/quote]

What makes you so certain you're correct? Did Jesus appear to you one day and say, "Yes, SolaScriptura, everything you believe is true"? Or are you operating more on the basis of feelings? Just because something "feels" right doesn't make it right.

Also, God did NOT lead you out of the Catholic Church. God is truth, and He will never lead you or anyone else to do whatever is at odds with truth. So by process of elimination, there's only one other person who could've led you out of the Catholic Church, and I think you know who I'm talking about.

In addition, your claim that you don't have time to respond to what petrus_scholasticus said is a cop-out. I think you know deep down that what he said makes perfect sense, but you don't want to admit that to yourself or to anyone else. Dude, that's not the way to be. Jesus Christ is either Lord of all your life or not at all. If you're relying on your own opinions and feelings, then maybe you need to rethink what you believe "following Christ" to be.

[SJP]

petrus_scholasticus,

please continue with the posts

[Mitchell_b55]

[size=2][font="Verdana"][center][color="#990000"][b]--{ Coming Soon to a PhatMass near you.}--[/b][/color][/center]

I may not have the opportunity to do so today, SPJ. However, I intend to expand upon the need to consume in the Old Testament. I have a number of things I would like to mention in regard to the Old Testament and then I want to move onto the New Testament ,which profusely quote in the Church's defense. I am sorry that you feel that way Sola Scriptura. "I have immediately noticed that you have a Christian disposition..." « [color="#990000"]That is the worst mistake in judging character that I have made in a very long time.[/color] Perhaps, I was blinded by the way Budge speaks in comparison. Regardless, "Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you" [1 Peter 3:15]. I will attempt, to the best of my ability, to provide everyone with a stalwart defense, so that my brethren may use it in the future if it is so needed.

P.S. - I will be carefully reworking this article and the "Interfaith Dialogue Debate" that I had with Budge into my new website, which hopefully will have enough content to release soon. I am working on some scientific arguments for the existence of God, and some a dissertation on Grace, Faith, and Works: A Study of Semantics. Pray for there completion and accuracy. I have already noticed some minor flaws in my debate with Budge. [Go search for them Budge, and nail me.]

Thank you, all for the support. I have been trying to be charitable and kind in disposition, since at some time in the near future I would like to enter a seminary. I will be posting details in Vocations Board very soon. Talk to you all later, Ciao.[/font][/size]

Edited October 3, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[cosiegirl]

[quote name='petrus_scholasticus' post='1082780' date='Oct 3 2006, 07:29 AM']
[size=2][font=Verdana][center][color="#990000"][b]--{ Coming Soon to a PhatMass near you.}--[/b][/color][/center]
I am sorry that you feel that way Sola Scriptura. "I have immediately noticed that you have a Christian disposition..." « [color="#990000"]That is the worst mistake in judging character that I have made in a very long time.[/color]
[/quote]

Do you realize that statement against me personally is mean and hurtful? Is that a proper Christian disposition?

Sorry if I offended you by my statement, but I was just trying to be honest and not waste your time.

[Aloysius]

perhaps that ought to have been phrased differently, i.e. "a disposition towards Christian dialogue"... that is what you have exhibited a lack of, and that is the only way one can exhibit a "Christian disposition" in a debate forum. it is something you have not exhibited by refusing to dialogue.

"Christian Dialogue" is something very unique to our culture and civilization, no other civilization in the world ever reached its level. It is primarily grounded in a personal humility which allows us to say something like "for the sake of the argument, let us assume you are correct..."; that even though we be totally convinced at heart of the truth of our own convictions, we can entertain during a dialogue the possibility that we have a mistaken understanding and understand the other side's argument on its own terms before we critique it.

[thessalonian]

[quote]I have no doubt in my mind that my faith is 100% correct.[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

very nice post
very nicely written
very good points
and...
he did it without useing annoying font sizes!

kudos!!!

[thessalonian]

[quote] God lead me away from the Catholic Church, I have no doubt of that. [/quote]


I've known mormons who had no doudt. That you do not doesn't mean alot.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082369' date='Oct 2 2006, 08:31 PM']
I have no doubt in my mind that my faith is 100% correct. I have a strong relationship with God and see him at work in my life. He has revealed himself through his Word and has given me nothing but confidence in my standing with him.
God lead me away from the Catholic Church, I have no doubt of that.
[/quote]I have no doubt in my mind that my faith is 100% correct. I have a strong relationship with God and see him at work in my life. He has revealed himself through his Word and has given me nothing but confidence in my standing with him. God lead me [b]to[/b] the Catholic Church, I have no doubt of that.

[Anomaly]

I find it noteworthy that people have the sure convinction that if they are 'right', it means others are 'wrong'.