homeschoolmom Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082013' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:40 PM']Since all scripture is “god-breathed” and the same cannot be said of the church then I think the argument of who came first is a bit dicey. [/quote] From the Gospel of John 20: 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. God does a lot of breathing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosiegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='Winchester' post='1082004' date='Oct 2 2006, 12:36 PM'] I'm dizzy... He told others to "Do this in remembrance of me." Only the Apostles were present, so you shouldn't be doing anything in remembrance of Him. So you're saying if I tell someone to toss the torch in remembrance of me that I have to come back to toss it in remembrance of me? The same logic would apply to your re-creation. You would have to have Christ do the breaking. Why don't you drink wine? Jesus did. Yes, we use unleavened bread. It keeps longer. Before you ask. No, the priest isn't Jewish. He doesn't have a bread. No one dips his in at the same time. No one runs out in the middle of Mass. Here's the problem. You've gone to an extreme and thus put yourself in an undefendable position. There are obviously passages we interpret. You should have said we misinterpret those passages rather than saying we had no passages. Thanks for being so civil. [/quote] I am saying that you misinterpret those passages. Your leap of faith to go from breaking bread and sharing a meal together to the “real presence” is a huge leap. I am fascinated that you would take John 6 so literally yet dodge the equation of eating his flesh with eternal life and miss all the huge road signs in John 6 that talk about the security of salvation and regeneration. If you say to toss the torch in remembrance of me then I can toss the torch just as you did. But to say that every time I toss the torch you become part of the torch and because you become part of the torch that allows me to revere the torch and that now throwing the torch is necessary to being joining you in the afterlife…well, that’s quite the leap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082023' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:48 PM'] Your leap of faith to go from breaking bread and sharing a meal together to the “real presence” is a huge leap.[/quote] Oh come on. You seem smart enough and honest enough to admit that the Passover was not "a meal" in the sense that dinner is a meal. They were not ejoying enchilladas together, they were participating in the commemoration of a religiously significant event-- being freed from Egypt. The mass is the same way. It's not a pot luck. [quote] If you say to toss the torch in remembrance of me then I can toss the torch just as you did. But to say that every time I toss the torch you become part of the torch and because you become part of the torch that allows me to revere the torch and that now throwing the torch is necessary to being joining you in the afterlife…well, that’s quite the leap. [/quote] For Winchester to say that-- yes. For God-- no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081771' date='Oct 2 2006, 08:38 AM'] There is nowhere in scripture where this process (and how to perform it) is outlined. [/quote] perhaps showing that scripture alone can not account for all doctrine and practices of faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosiegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 I’m sorry, but there are just way too many of you to answer back to. I hope that you will cut Budge some slack as it is virtually impossible to answer back everyone who is coming at you with questions. I can see how you may misinterpret John 6 and throw in the other passages to confirm your position, but it is still just a misinterpretation. A long history of misinterpretation does not change that. Jesus did give you the answer to the metaphor. He did not explain how transubstantiation would work (which would have been the perfect time to explain that) but instead he explained the difference between the flesh and spirit. 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1082032' date='Oct 2 2006, 12:55 PM'] Oh come on. You seem smart enough and honest enough to admit that the Passover was not "a meal" in the sense that dinner is a meal. They were not ejoying enchilladas together, they were participating in the commemoration of a religiously significant event-- being freed from Egypt. The mass is the same way. It's not a pot luck. For Winchester to say that-- yes. For God-- no. [/quote] The Corinthians were sharing meal as is clear from Paul's letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 A'ight. The comment that the length of a 'misinterpretation' matters little is not much of an argument. Come up with some other theologians from the first 500 years that disagreed. Jesus' answer to the metaphor was indicative that Jesus was God in the Flesh which is more stunning that changing his flesh into real food for spiritual nurishment while we are in human (flesh) form. Jesus also says that one needs God's grace to know Jesus spiritually and in the flesh and in the context of the passage, needes God's grace to know Jesus in the Bread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosiegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1082034' date='Oct 2 2006, 12:57 PM'] perhaps showing that scripture alone can not account for all doctrine and practices of faith? [/quote] Did you mean the "not". I'm assuming not. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2Tim 3:16-17 Competent. Equipped for EVERY good work. What did Jesus use to rebuff Satan during the temptation? Scripture. What did Jesus reason from to show the men walking to Emmaus that he was the Messiah? Scripture. What did the NT writers refer to support the fulfillment of Christ as the predicted Messiah? Scripture. What is God-breathed? Scripture. I know you will not accept this, but I'll put it out there anyway. Jesus held the Word of God it the utmost regard. So should we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 What did Satan use to tempt Jesus? Scripture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 What did the Jewish Elders use to condem Jesus? Scripture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosiegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='Anomaly' post='1082050' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:16 PM'] What did Satan use to tempt Jesus? Scripture! [/quote] Satan twisted scripture to tempt him. Wow, what are you trying to say about scripture by that comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082048' date='Oct 2 2006, 03:14 PM'] Did you mean the "not". I'm assuming not. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2Tim 3:16-17 Competent. Equipped for EVERY good work. What did Jesus use to rebuff Satan during the temptation? Scripture. What did Jesus reason from to show the men walking to Emmaus that he was the Messiah? Scripture. What did the NT writers refer to support the fulfillment of Christ as the predicted Messiah? Scripture. What is God-breathed? Scripture. I know you will not accept this, but I'll put it out there anyway. Jesus held the Word of God it the utmost regard. So should we. [/quote] The Word of God should be held to the utmost regard. The problem lies in the fact that without Tradition, we have no idea which Scripture is inspired, and which is made up. It is this same Tradition that tells us how the Scriptures are to be interpreted correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosiegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='T-Bone' post='1082051' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:17 PM'] What did the Jewish Elders use to condem Jesus? Scripture! [/quote] And did they use scripture approriately to do such a task. Are you saying that they used scripture correctly in what they did? [quote name='thedude' post='1082094' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:45 PM'] The Word of God should be held to the utmost regard. The problem lies in the fact that without Tradition, we have no idea which Scripture is inspired, and which is made up. It is this same Tradition that tells us how the Scriptures are to be interpreted correctly. [/quote] And what tells you that the tradition is correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082091' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:44 PM'] Satan twisted scripture to tempt him. Wow, what are you trying to say about scripture by that comment. [/quote] I'm saying what the catholics here aren't afraid of saying and what the protestants are afraid of saying. Scripture can't stand alone without God's participation via various means. Caths and prots just argue what the 'various' means are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosiegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='Anomaly' post='1082098' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:47 PM'] I'm saying what the catholics here aren't afraid of saying and what the protestants are afraid of saying. Scripture can't stand alone without God's participation via various means. Caths and prots just argue what the 'various' means are. [/quote] So if all you had was a Bible and no external contact, you don’t believe you could determine how to be saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 2, 2006 Share Posted October 2, 2006 [quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082095' date='Oct 2 2006, 12:47 PM'] And did they use scripture approriately to do such a task. Are you saying that they used scripture correctly in what they did? [/quote] No they did not. They misused scripture. [quote] And what tells you that the tradition is correct? [/quote] Scripture came from Tradition. If Tradition is incorrect, so is Scripture. [quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1082105' date='Oct 2 2006, 12:54 PM'] So if all you had was a Bible and no external contact, you don’t believe you could determine how to be saved? [/quote] No, you couldn't. You'd need a teacher to explain things. (Ethiopian Eunuch, anyone?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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