Eucharist Not In The Bible

[cosiegirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1081243' date='Oct 1 2006, 08:15 PM']
He was clearly speaking lieterally when he said

For my flesh is[b] [i]meat indeed[/i][/b]: and my blood is [color="#FF0000"]drink indeed[/color].
[/quote]

Again, if you are going to take John 6 literally then you are stuck with verse 54 which would say that anyone who has taken communion has eternal life. Is it that easy?

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1081254' date='Oct 1 2006, 08:25 PM']
Jesus also says that anyone who believes in him will have eternal life. Does that mean we can sin all we want and ignore Jesus so long as we "believe in" him?
[/quote]

No, because that is not what believing in him means.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081255' date='Oct 1 2006, 09:29 PM']
No, because that is not what believing in him means.
[/quote]
Thus, you've answered your own question.

Receiving the Lord's Body and Blood is part of believing in Him. You only receive the grace if you are in the state to receive.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081255' date='Oct 1 2006, 07:29 PM']
No, because that is not what believing in him means.
[/quote]

Then what DOES believing in something mean? That you think it doesn't exist?

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081255' date='Oct 1 2006, 07:29 PM']
No, because that is not what believing in him means.
[/quote]

Then what DOES believing in something mean? That you think it doesn't exist? (Remember, we have to have a literal interpetation, and according to Sola Scriptora, can't use any outside information.)

[Socrates]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081247' date='Oct 1 2006, 08:19 PM']
I believe in the bread and wine being symbolic of Christ's sacrifice. "Do this in remembrance of me".
[/quote]
"You believe"? Really, who cares what you personally believe about it?
Read what John 6 actually says.

Why did so many disciples leave Christ over this, if He was only speaking symbolically?

And why didn't Christ call them back and explain what He really meant?

1 Corinthians 11:27-29:[quote] Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. [b]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.[/b] [/quote]

Pretty strong talk if this is all just symbolism or metaphor!

Edited October 2, 2006 by Socrates

[Norseman82]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081255' date='Oct 1 2006, 09:29 PM']
Again, if you are going to take John 6 literally then you are stuck with verse 54 which would say that anyone who has taken communion has eternal life. [/quote]

[color="#33CC00"]In the nourishing sense, yes. Let me give you an analogy. Once you are born, you need to eat nourishment to sustain you; otherwise, you starve to death. So also, once you are born [i]again[/i], your soul needs nourishment.

Simple enough?[/color]

[Winchester]

"Do this in rememberance of me."

I'm not sure how doing something to remember someone means you only act symbolically. I thought it meant "do this..." in other words, you do what that person was doing at the time that person said it.

For intance:
I light a torch and throw it off a cliff, telling you to "Do this in rememberance of me."

Does that mean you later pretend to throw a torch?

[dUSt]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081233' date='Oct 1 2006, 08:08 PM']
No, you cannot use John 6. If you take John 6 literally everyone who takes communion according to verse 55 above has eternal life.

Do you believe that everyone who takes communion has eternal life?
[/quote]
Yes.

In order to recieve communion, you must be in a state of grace. Therefore, those that recieve commuinion have eternal life.

But, unlike what you believe, the Bible and the Church teach us that we can fall out of that state of grace by our own will and choose to reject that eternal life.

So. Next argument?

[cosiegirl]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1081575' date='Oct 2 2006, 12:07 AM']
"Do this in rememberance of me."

I'm not sure how doing something to remember someone means you only act symbolically. I thought it meant "do this..." in other words, you do what that person was doing at the time that person said it.

For intance:
I light a torch and throw it off a cliff, telling you to "Do this in rememberance of me."

Does that mean you later pretend to throw a torch?
[/quote]

Yes, and we "do it" the way Christ did. He broke bread and drank wine at a Supper along with his disciples. That is what we do.

Where is the transubstantiation parting occuring in those verses? Where is it ever talked about? It's not there.

[quote name='dUSt' post='1081656' date='Oct 2 2006, 12:57 AM']
Yes.

In order to recieve communion, you must be in a state of grace. Therefore, those that recieve commuinion have eternal life.

But, unlike what you believe, the Bible and the Church teach us that we can fall out of that state of grace by our own will and choose to reject that eternal life.

So. Next argument?
[/quote]

Who determines whether you are in a state of grace when you take communion? Anyone could put on some nice clothes, sneak into the local Catholic Church and take communion.

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1081262' date='Oct 1 2006, 08:35 PM']
Then what DOES believing in something mean? That you think it doesn't exist? (Remember, we have to have a literal interpetation, and according to Sola Scriptora, can't use any outside information.)
[/quote]

Where is the literal interpretation that says I must eat Christ's flesh to obtain salvation?

"Believing" is defined througout the NT as having faith in Christ. That mean accepting his sacrifice for your sin (knowing that you can not be righteous on your own) and giving your life over to him.

All you have for the literal "eating of flesh" is John 6 which obviously cannot be the correct interpretation because simply taking communion cannot give eternal life as verse 54 says. So "eating his flesh" must be a metaphor for accepting his work on the cross (his body and blood) as payment for your own sin penalty.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1081575' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:07 AM']
"Do this in rememberance of me."

I'm not sure how doing something to remember someone means you only act symbolically. I thought it meant "do this..." in other words, you do what that person was doing at the time that person said it.

For intance:
I light a torch and throw it off a cliff, telling you to "Do this in rememberance of me."

Does that mean you later pretend to throw a torch?
[/quote]
No, Winnie, you toss a match-- the symbol of a torch, duh!


[quote]Yes, and we "do it" the way Christ did. He broke bread and drank wine at a Supper along with his disciples. That is what we do.

Where is the transubstantiation parting occuring in those verses? Where is it ever talked about? It's not there.[/quote]

(I'll try a different Gospel this time)
Luke 22;

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


btw, do you really drink wine?

[cosiegirl]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1081388' date='Oct 1 2006, 10:34 PM']
[color="#33CC00"]In the nourishing sense, yes. Let me give you an analogy. Once you are born, you need to eat nourishment to sustain you; otherwise, you starve to death. So also, once you are born [i]again[/i], your soul needs nourishment.

Simple enough?[/color]
[/quote]

That is ay least one of the better analogies I have heard, but it is still wrong.

Yes, when I am born I need physical nourishment. When I am reborn, I need spiritual nourishment which does not come in the form of physical food, but through the Spirit.

Right analogy, wrong application.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='SolaScriptura' post='1081255' date='Oct 1 2006, 10:29 PM']
Again, if you are going to take John 6 literally then you are stuck with verse 54 which would say that anyone who has taken communion has eternal life. Is it that easy?
[/quote]
Is it as easy as saying a sinner's prayer?

No, it's not that easy. St. Paul says that if we eat and drink unworthily (which he defines as not discerning the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist--meaning those who deny or disregard the Real Presence), we will drink judgment on ourselves. The Eucharist is the font of eternal life, it is necessary for salvation inasmuch as it can be received (those who cannot receive it do not need it, such as infants; their Baptism will suffice). In as much as it is received worthily, it brings grace to the soul. In so much as it is received unworthily, it condemns. Now, salvation does not hinge on reception of the Body and Blood of Christ alone, since a man can simply sin mortally and then not receive, but he too has failed to discern the Body, which, had he recognized it and truly desired it and its salvific effect, he would have received. So it essentially comes down to whether or not you will reject Jesus Christ, since He is made present to us in the Eucharist.

Jesus Christ didn't say "remember me." He said, "do this (turn bread and wine into my true Body and Blood) in rememberence (literally, a "making present" or "re-presenting") of me."

[cosiegirl]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1081760' date='Oct 2 2006, 07:03 AM']
No, Winnie, you toss a match-- the symbol of a torch, duh!
(I'll try a different Gospel this time)
Luke 22;

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
btw, do you really drink wine?
[/quote]

Note the "do this in REMEMBRANCE of me".

If transubstatiation is occurring here than at best you would have to say that you need Jesus there to break the bread for you. There is nowhere in scripture where this process (and how to perform it) is outlined.

Do I drink wine? I drink a drink made from grapes the same as wine. Do you drink wine with the same alcohol content of the 1st century wine? The same grapes to make the wine?

Do you use bread?

[homeschoolmom]

Excuse me, Raphael... what is this "sinner's prayer"? I have never run accross that in the Scriptures.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1081773' date='Oct 2 2006, 09:39 AM']
Excuse me, Raphael... what is this "sinner's prayer"? I have never run accross that in the Scriptures.
[/quote]
Really? It's not in there?!