Budge Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 The apostles warned of EARLY DECEIVERS. I believe the majority of Rome's EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, fit the bill. Origen most definitely. [b]2Pe 2:1 ¶ [u]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/u], even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b] Paul warns of grievous wolves to Come RIGHT after his departure. [b]Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing [u]shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.[/u] Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.[/b] * In Pauls Day -"Already"- they were in the church * Not 1500 years later, in at the Reformation ct 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Act 20:32 [b]And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and [b]to the word of his grace[/b], which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.[/b] Paul warns the church to stick with God's Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 yeah, there were tons of early heretics and the church dealt with them accordingly and prevailed (for we know that the evil things cannot prevail against the true church). good thing st. paul and all the subsequent apostolic bishops were so vigilant at rooting out all heresies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 29, 2006 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 Why do you assume, that some of your favored men are not heretics as well. Since you have made them the foundation instead of Gods Word to judge them by? Where is the standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1079130' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:39 PM'] Why do you assume, that some of your favored men are not heretics as well. Since you have made them the foundation instead of Gods Word to judge them by? Where is the standard? [/quote] They were judged by the Church with God's word and found to be proficient. Since knowledge of the Scriptures has grown and developed (an instant argument against the notion that Scripture is self-explanitory), they may not each have had everything right. That is why the Church doesn't give them infallible credence, but looks to the things they all agreed were Scriptural and those things the whole Church has always believed to be true. Thus, the Vincentian Canon defines the deposit as that which has been believed always, by all, and in all places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 29, 2006 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 They were the founders of your church were they not? How were they held accountable then if they were their own judges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1079210' date='Sep 29 2006, 02:33 PM'] They were the founders of your church were they not? How were they held accountable then if they were their own judges? [/quote] Jesus Christ is the founder of our Church. They were not the judges. The Church is the judge. They were not the whole of the Church, but a part of it, nor were they each individually the Magisterium, but each a part of it. The Magisterium is a corporate entity, not an ability held by each bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 THOSE men are the ones who chose the canon of the New Testament, I would be careful how I refer to them. Remember the bible is younger than the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1079111' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:09 PM'] [b]2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be [u]false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/u], even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b][/quote] How do we know you're not the "false teacher among you who privily shall bring in damnable heresies"? You're the one who was using a pagan symbol as an avatar image. [quote]Paul warns the church to stick with God's Word.[/quote] It would be nice if you would select an issue where you think the Church has not stuck to God's word rather than copy/pasting scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1079111' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:09 PM'] The apostles warned of EARLY DECEIVERS. I believe the majority of Rome's EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, fit the bill. Origen most definitely. [b]2Pe 2:1 ¶ [u]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies[/u], even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/b] Paul warns of grievous wolves to Come RIGHT after his departure. [b]Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing [u]shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.[/u] Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.[/b] * In Pauls Day -"Already"- they were in the church * Not 1500 years later, in at the Reformation ct 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Act 20:32 [b]And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and [b]to the word of his grace[/b], which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.[/b] Paul warns the church to stick with God's Word. [/quote] I'm disappointed. This post doesn't show any of these heresies of which you speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1079210' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:33 PM'] They were the founders of your church were they not? How were they held accountable then if they were their own judges? [/quote] This is a joke, right? Isn't the whole point of the Reformed tradition that each one of us can read and interpret the Bible for him/herself? David Koresh, anyone? Or Jimmy Swaggart? Or Jim Bakker? Or Jim Jones? Hello, McFly, it's "your" guys who are doing a "solo run" because they're not constrained by any larger authority, i.e. they're their "own judges." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 I'm pretty sure the best bet on those sorts of passages would be the early gnostics and maybe judaizers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 29, 2006 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote]This is a joke, right?[/quote] Nope... Matthew 23:10, Jesus says "Nec vocemini magistri: quia magister vester unus est, Christus." (Jerome's Vulgate) which means [size=4]"Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [/size](Catholic Douay-Rheims) So what does the Catholic church do? It reads Jesus' statement that Christians are not to call anyone MAGISTER and.....creates a group of men they call the MAGISTERIUM! Another case of Scripture saying one thing and Rome doing another! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1079404' date='Sep 29 2006, 03:05 PM'] Nope... Matthew 23:10, Jesus says "Nec vocemini magistri: quia magister vester unus est, Christus." (Jerome's Vulgate) which means [size=4]"Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [/size](Catholic Douay-Rheims) So what does the Catholic church do? It reads Jesus' statement that Christians are not to call anyone MAGISTER and.....creates a group of men they call the MAGISTERIUM! Another case of Scripture saying one thing and Rome doing another! [/quote] Look, Budge, all I have to do is say the words "David Koresh" to smash your argument into a million little pieces. Quote anything you like but if it's taken out of context, it can mean anything you want it to mean. In terms of the tired old canard cited above, it's been debunked umpteen times on this board, so there's really no further point in responding. Unless you look at scripture as a whole, and unless you do so in its linguistic and historical context, you can make it say whatever you want. Ironically, that's where heresies come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1079404' date='Sep 29 2006, 05:05 PM'] Nope... Matthew 23:10, Jesus says "Nec vocemini magistri: quia magister vester unus est, Christus." (Jerome's Vulgate) which means [size=4]"Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ." [/size](Catholic Douay-Rheims) So what does the Catholic church do? It reads Jesus' statement that Christians are not to call anyone MAGISTER and.....creates a group of men they call the MAGISTERIUM! Another case of Scripture saying one thing and Rome doing another! [/quote] I think there must be a short term memory problem somewhere, because we covered this exact thing about a week ago. And since we already did, and that is not the topic of this thread, the thread should probably be closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 30, 2006 Author Share Posted September 30, 2006 [quote]Look, Budge, all I have to do is say the words "David Koresh" to smash your argument into a million little pieces. Quote anything you like but if it's taken out of context, it can mean anything you want it to mean. In terms of the tired old canard cited above, it's been debunked umpteen times on this board, so there's really no further point in responding.[/quote] David Koresh, made the same mistake, making himself the same ultimate authority with no accountability. This is something every cult does.... Cults always have a strong leader or group of leaders, that are not to be questioned no matter what who hold complete power and sway over their followers. Really this is how mind control is done in cults. [b] 87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful [b]receive with docility [/b]the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.[/b] The apostles taught differently, "follow me as I follow Christ" Christianity is not supposed to be a religion of blind obedience. but obeying God rather then men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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