What I Believe

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1078651' date='Sep 29 2006, 02:17 AM']
Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Justian Martyr are some of those that I have read thus far. I'm still working on Origen. I also like Cyprian.
[/quote]

What about them interests you. btw, you are absolutely right that the fathers disagree with each other, there are even fathers who held heretical views. Catholics certianly won't say that the writings and teachings of the fathers are inspired scripture. They offer insights into the development of Christian doctrine though that are very important. You believe that Jesus is 'begotten, not made' and that God is "a Trinity, three persons and yet one essance" through the fathers whether you realize it or not, as it has been handed down to us. The fathers express the life and thought of Christians throughout the early history of the Church and help us get a picture for what the Church was and is. Justin Martyr is also an excellent author. He gives us great insight into the Logos. Origin is also quite the figure. If you have the time, let's dig into their texts.

[Budge]

So New Reformation, please list the Catholic doctrines/disciplines you do not agree with.
Here I'll get you started....

Purgatory?

Eucharist?

Infant Baptism?

Immaculate Conception?



[quote]
Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Justian Martyr are some of those that I have read thus far. I'm still working on Origen. I also like Cyprian.[/quote]

All early deceivers.

You know the score on Origen dont you?
[quote]
Or·i·gen (ôr'ĭ-jĕn', -jən, ŏr'-) pronunciation, A.D.185?–254?.

Greek philosopher and theologian who reinterpreted Christian doctrine through Neo-Platonist philosophy. His influential work was later condemned as unorthodox.
[/quote]

It's odd, I know years ago this guy was considered unorthodox as it says above, odd how he is becoming ever so popular, castration and all.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078646' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:13 PM']
You all believe God exsists but have you become a new creature in Christ?
[b]
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/b]
[/quote]
Yes. Had you read another thread we had this discussion in, you would have your answer already.



[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1078661' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:23 PM']
What about them interests you. btw, you are absolutely right that the fathers disagree with each other, there are even fathers who held heretical views. Catholics certianly won't say that the writings and teachings of the fathers are inspired scripture. They offer insights into the development of Christian doctrine though that are very important. You believe that Jesus is 'begotten, not made' and that God is "a Trinity, three persons and yet one essance" through the fathers whether you realize it or not, as it has been handed down to us. [b]The fathers express the life and thought of Christians throughout the early history of the Church[/b] and help us get a picture for what the Church was and is. Justin Martyr is also an excellent author. He gives us great insight into the Logos. Origin is also quite the figure. If you have the time, let's dig into their texts.
[/quote]
Which is precisely why I read them.

[Budge]

Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078664' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:26 PM']
So New Reformation, please list the Catholic doctrines/disciplines you do not agree with.
Here I'll get you started....

Purgatory?

Eucharist?

Infant Baptism?

Immaculate Conception?
All early deceivers.

You know the score on Origen dont you?
It's odd, I know years ago this guy was considered unorthodox as it says above, odd how he is becoming ever so popular, castration and all.
[/quote]

As to the doctrines/disciplines above, no...er...yes. Or whatever means I disagree with them. I'm not sure based on how your question is worded. But no, I don't believe them.

All early decievers? You do realize that had it not been for Cyprian, the KJV translators likely would not have put 1John 5:7 in the Bible right? Apart from Cyprian, there's very little support for that verse, even in the TR.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078674' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:31 AM']
Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?
[/quote]

What kind of christian doesn't read the writings of the earliest members of his faith?
To despise the past is to be confused in the present.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078674' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:31 PM']
Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?
[/quote]

Ok, "Early Church Leaders." Is that better for you? I'm just using a common term already in place.

Where did I say I reject God's Word for the writings of the Early Church Leaders? I merely stated that I was studying them to look at the history of Christianity in that time period.

Question for you Budge: What camp are you in? Nationwide? Southwide? HAC or BJU? What IFB camp is your church in? Ruckman? Hyles? Gray?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078674' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:31 AM']
Every person that reads the early church 'fathers' [call no man father] and follows those false teachings over God's Word is usually led into more confusion.

What kind of Baptist rejects Gods glorious, beautiful Word for the writings of Neo-Platonians, wannabe pagans like Origen?
[/quote]
Budge, we don't take their teachings over God's word. In fact, Origen took an ultra-literalist view of Christ's words on being eunuchs for the kingdom and castrated himself. Do you think we follow his advice in that regard? Certainly not. We read the Fathers of the Church in order to see what the learned members of the Early Church thought about Scripture...to see their interpretations...much the same as the followers of Budgianism at some point in the future would look up these threads to find out your interpretations rather than come to their own ideas without guidance.

[Budge]

[quote]
What kind of christian doesn't read the writingsd earliest members of his faith?
To despise the past is to be confused in the present.
[/quote]

The Bible over and over warns of EARLY deceivers, even deceivers at the time of ACTS, so how can you trust these men at their word? You cannot.

Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

I havent even gotten started on all the FORGERIES there are of this EARLY 'HISTORY'.


[quote]
Question for you Budge: What camp are you in? Nationwide? Southwide? HAC or BJU? What IFB camp is your church in? Ruckman? Hyles? Gray?
[/quote]

Im a Christian first and foremost, Im not going to get into nit-picks and denominational turf battles with you.

I know there are Baptists going the way the dying liberal mainlines have gone.


[quote]
Budge, we don't take their teachings over God's word. In fact, Origen took an ultra-literalist view of Christ's words on being eunuchs for the kingdom and castrated himself. Do you think we follow his advice in that regard? Certainly not. We read the Fathers of the Church in order to see what the learned members of the Early Church thought about Scripture...to see their interpretations...much the same as the followers of Budgianism at some point in the future would look up these threads to find out your interpretations rather than come to their own ideas without guidance.[/quote]

[url="http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/RC144.htm"]HOW RELIABLE ARE ROMES CHURCH FATHERS?[/url]

This is trusting in man, and Rome's version of History and facts {betrayal of the Reformation} rather then in God's pure eternal Word.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078720' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:04 AM']

Im a Christian first and foremost, Im not going to get into nit-picks and denominational turf battles with you.

I know there are Baptists going the way the dying liberal mainlines have gone.

[/quote]

Not about turf. I just want to know which IFB church leaders you respect and whose writings you are reading in order to establish what exactly you believe. Besides David Cloud I mean.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078720' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:04 AM']
[url="http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/RC144.htm"]HOW RELIABLE ARE ROMES CHURCH FATHERS?[/url]

This is trusting in man, and Rome's version of History and facts {betrayal of the Reformation} rather then in God's pure eternal Word.
[/quote]
Budge, having met Dr. Hahn and being a friend of his son, I request you to stop slandering him and linking to sources that slander him. That article is clearly misguided, claiming academic dishonesty when the quote it uses from Dr. Hahn actually claims the exact same thing it does.

Furthermore, that source takes quotes from something called the "Question Box Column." This is hardly an official Magisterial document.

[Budge]

The only thing I will tell you is I am not a Ruckmanite.

My Christian life is not centered in denominationalism.

Scripture is what I read first and foremost, and test the words of all men by.

[quote]
Budge, having met Dr. Hahn and being a friend of his son, I request you to stop slandering him and linking to sources that slander him. That article is clearly misguided, claiming academic dishonesty when the quote it uses from Dr. Hahn actually claims the exact same thing it does.[/quote]

How come you claim Dr. Hahn is slandered everytime someone simply disagrees with him?

By the way Ive read several of his books, the Lamb's Supper was one of the last books I read before I left the Catholic church.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078727' date='Sep 29 2006, 12:11 AM']
The only thing I will tell you is I am not a Ruckmanite.

My Christian life is not centered in denominationalism.

Scripture is what I read first and foremost, and test the words of all men by.

[/quote]
Good. Now, do you hold that some of these men you read(like say, David Cloud) may be in error in some areas, but are very solid in other areas?

[Budge]

No man is perfect only Jesus Christ is perfect, that is who we are to center our lives on, not any men, or men that claim infallibility.

[Counter-Reformer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078727' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:11 AM']
The only thing I will tell you is I am not a Ruckmanite.

My Christian life is not centered in denominationalism. [/quote]
Yet wasn't that the very heart of the Reformation? Neither of the reformers believed in an invisible Church of believers. Infact, Luther went after Zwingili becuase he saw that Swingili was a heretic against the "Evangelicals" of Germany. John Calvin broke with the Lutherans on sever points and set up his own theocracy in Geneva becuase he believed that only a literal 144,000 would be saved and that his Calvinists in Geneva would be the Church that everybody saw.



[quote]Scripture is what I read first and foremost, and test the words of all men by.[/quote]
Yet for THe Traditional protestants from the outset this is not so. The Means of norming and the means of interpretation go by thier various confessions. The Westminister Confession is a means of norming and interpreting scripture for traditional Calvinists. For the Lutherans, scripture is noormed by the Augsburg confessions. By traditional protestantism, you are considered a heretic.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Counter-Reformer