Looking For Bible Quote

[Budge]

[quote]Either the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ or it is not.[/quote]

One of us is right and one is wrong.

Here is a book for you to read.

[img]http://www.hartlandpublications.com/Rgbre1.jpg[/img]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079697' date='Sep 29 2006, 07:54 PM']
Real unity in Jesus Christ allows a person to be an individual.

Here I'll explain it, with the exception of three individuals, I feel like I am talking to the same person over and over on this message board. [/quote]
It sounds like one person because we're all speaking of the same Truth. There is only one Truth, not many truths based on individuality.

Just because we share the one Truth in one Faith in one Church doesn't mean we lose individuality. Some people like chocolate ice cream. Some like vanilla. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=57862&hl=deodorant"]Some like Axe, and some like Old Spice[/url].

[quote]I always wonder where more liberal Catholics {there numbers are far higher in the pews then they are in the online Catholic world} and Sedevancantists are on boards like these, it seems they get run off faster then any Fundie Christians.[/quote]
Maybe because those people possess something you do not seem to possess, the ability to re-examine your presumptions. They are working to rectify what they learn here with what they've learned elsewhere. They do not flat out deny what they are hearing.

Most important of all, they seek to understand or maybe in some cases reform the Church from within and not without as you have chosen to do.

I read this thread and failed to see your Bible references. Could you please reproduce them?

[quote name='Budge' post='1079712' date='Sep 29 2006, 08:12 PM']
One of us is right and one is wrong.

Here is a book for you to read.

[img]http://www.hartlandpublications.com/Rgbre1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Here is a book for you to read.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Rome-Sweet-Home-Journey-Catholicism/dp/0898704782/sr=8-1/qid=1159575738/ref=sr_1_1/103-9387642-5415843?ie=UTF8&s=books"][img]http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0898704782.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg[/img][/url]

[Budge]

[quote]
Maybe because those people possess something you do not seem to possess, the ability to re-examine your presumptions. They are working to rectify what they learn here with what they've learned elsewhere. They do not flat out deny what they are hearing.[/quote]

I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture and in Luke 9 the apostles even debate among themselves who shall be the greatest and Jesus basically answers none of you.

The problem here is I am not dealing with those who are seeking who examine their faith, but ones who have their minds already made up immired totally in slogans and the decision before we even begin...THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

[Aloysius]

I'll give you that: if the Eucharist is not truly and substantially Jesus Christ, then every faithful Catholic in the world is an idolater.

Of course, I believe in a just God who would more punish those who tricked every Catholic into believing this than every Catholic... for when they worship the Eucharist they are attempting to worship Christ and God sees the interior motivations of every man and through that renders judgement.

But yes, it all hinges on the Real Presence. If Jesus was not speaking literally (He sure did make it easily enough interpreted that way, though) then the Eucharist is idolatry. I have always said that, go back to my way earlier posts you'll find it.

Of course, I believe Jesus to have been speaking literally, and so I believe our worship of Jesus in the Eucharist is not idolatry.

You see all of our images and all of our sacraments as reversions back to old pagan ways.. but our understanding of them reveals (at least from an anthropological perspective) an inversion of the old ways. But if you our not willing to first learn our beliefs and our motivations on our own terms, then your sinful arrogance, pride, and obstinance of heart will lead you straight to hell where you can worship the demon who you call "christ" who is really just your own concoction of a deity which agrees with all of your politics and all of your opinions and everything you want to be true but not much which comes from outside of yourself.

You are probably one of the first people I've met from other Christian denominations who I can feel comfortable calling "non-Christian" and whose concept of "christ" I can feel comfortable in calling a demon.

And of course you will say I simply attempt to demonize your side and pull out your mistakes in catholic apologetics quote (pot calling the kettle black, of course)... but even other protestants recognize all of the hate which you get from your father, who is satan. he has tricked you into a path which is leading you straight to hell under the prideful pretense that you're one of the only ones saved.

[quote name='Budge' post='1079721' date='Sep 29 2006, 09:27 PM']
I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture and in Luke 9 the apostles even debate among themselves who shall be the greatest and Jesus basically answers none of you.

The problem here is I am not dealing with those who are seeking who examine their faith, but ones who have their minds already made up immired totally in slogans and the decision before we even begin...THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
[/quote]
pot calling the kettle black, anyone? this is a typical (anthropologically speaking) tactic of every culture's ethnocentricity throughout the world throughout time... except one: the unique Christian Western culture which is self-penitential and humble. But every other culture throughout the whole world... most notably the arab islamic culture, will say "you have to be open to our truth" and "you should stop blinding yourself to our truth" but will never ever even for a moment take the position "perhaps I could be wrong, let me hear your side out and then tell you why I think you are not"... phrases which have arisen unique to our culture are things such as "for the sake of argument..." and "let's assume for a moment that you're right..." et cetera... and these are the things which make our point of view in line with the Eternal Logos... Reason itself... because it is reasonable to be humble and hear the other side out... but not you, Budge.

I am quite willing to listen to New Reformation et al. and discuss with them and give their arguments the benefit of the doubt, because they hold this uniquely western reasonable Christian humble idea. but not you, because, like I said, your father is the father of lies.

[Budge]

[quote]You see all of our images and all of our sacraments as reversions back to old pagan ways.. but our understanding of them reveals (at least from an anthropological perspective) an inversion of the old ways. But if you our not willing to first learn our beliefs and our motivations on our own terms, then your sinful arrogance, pride, and obstinance of heart [b]will lead you straight to hell where you can worship the demon who you call "christ"[/b] who is really just your own concoction of a deity which agrees with all of your politics and all of your opinions and everything you want to be true but not much which comes from outside of yourself.

You are probably one of the first people I've met from other Christian denominations who [b]I can feel comfortable calling "non-Christian" and whose concept of "christ" I can feel comfortable in calling a demon.[/b]
[/quote]

I agree with you in that....

We do worship a different 'Jesus' and from the exchanges here, I know you reject the Jesus Christ I worship and His Word.

You can rant and rave against me but it just makes me sad for you.















[quote]this is a typical (anthropologically speaking) [b]tactic of every culture's ethnocentricity throughout the world throughout time... except one:[/b] the unique Christian Western culture which is self-penitential and humble. But every other culture throughout the whole world... most notably the arab islamic culture, will say "you have to be open to our truth" and "you should stop blinding yourself to our truth" but will never ever even for a moment take the position [b]"perhaps I could be wrong, let me hear your side out and then tell you why I think you are not"... phrases[/b][/quote]

You have just preached Multiculturalism 101...which is rooted in moral relativism and basically says the values of all cultures are equal, and there is different truths for different people.

Multiculturism is adverse to the Christian gospel.

[url="http://logosresourcepages.org/OurTimes/multiculturalism.htm"]Multiculturalism’s Clandestine War Against Christianity #1[/url]

[Aloysius]

You insisted, we worship different jesuses. Yours is completely and totally subject to your own interpretations; mine I follow completely from sources I find outside of myself: from humble attention to those who came before in the long history of my historical and incarnational faith

your faith is ahistoric, and though incarnational in word not incarnational in practice... it does not get the point that Christ came in the Flesh to give all His followers to oppurtunity to know Him through the physical world.. Christ came in the Flesh

You say I rant and rave? It is you who rant and rave, I finally merely responded by agreeing with you: the Jesus Christ of paranoia, arrogance, politics, injustice, and hatred you describe is not the Jesus Christ who I worship. You have been deceived by a demon.

A conterfeit church may arise in the end times... but it sure won't be the church that has been there throughout the entire incarnational history of the Church.

True Christianity is the only real historical religion because of its belief in the incarnation. You have returned to a non-historical religion with no more merits than the old village religions which each produced their own god in the hindu religion. they produced their own gods which could represent them in all their opinions and political views.

[quote name='Budge' post='1079728' date='Sep 29 2006, 09:42 PM']
I agree with you in that....

We do worship a different 'Jesus' and from the exchanges here, I know you reject the Jesus Christ I worship and His Word.

You can rant and rave against me but it just makes me sad for you.


You have just preached Multiculturalism 101...which is rooted in moral relativism and basically says the values of all cultures are equal, and there is different truths for different people.

Multiculturism is adverse to the Christian gospel.

[url="http://logosresourcepages.org/OurTimes/multiculturalism.htm"]Multiculturalism’s Clandestine War Against Christianity #1[/url]
[/quote]
but as a matter of fact, I did not preach moral relativism, or say that all cultures are equal. in fact, I was just describing an aspect of our culture which I believe is morally superior to all other cultures: namely that even when it loses its Christian faith it retains its old ideas of Christian humility. You follow the old world system of things, where any humility on the part of a culture is a sign of weakness, but when we are weak, then we are strong. This is the greatest strength of our culture, and it is deeply rooted in our Christian values: that though we firmly believe from the start of the argument to the end of an argument that we are absolutely positively correct, we have the amazing capacity that no other culture in history has had to say "hold on a second, let me bracket that off, learn what you say on its own terms, stop the argument for a second and for its sake study yours as if you are right... but hear me out on what I say is right.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078276' date='Sep 28 2006, 05:53 PM']
[size=2]Pr 25:2
¶ It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter[/size]

God has hidden the truth from the unwise...

john 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Anyhow none of you understand what Sola Scripture really is...

you mean it to say the BIBLE is EVERYTHING, we mean it to say that the BIBLE IS SUFFICIENT.
[size=2][u][b]
The church is not to judge the bible, but the bible the church.[/b][/u][/size]

Just another Strawman floated by Catholics.
[/quote]
I responded to this assertion with the following:


[quote name='Winchester' post='1078282' date='Sep 28 2006, 05:55 PM']
I believe the Bible is sufficient. I believe that using the Bible alone that I can prove the validity of the Catholic Church.

I believe that using the Bible alone I can prove the divinity of Christ and the Ressurection.

It is sufficient.

But it is not alone.
[/quote]

Sola Scriptura rejects two other things Catholics see as parts of Christ's instruments for teaching and protecting the Faith. I don't get where your scripture passages say to use only the Bible.
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:15
It doesn't have to be written to be proper teaching.

There was an oral tradition before Christ, and Matthew speaks of a prophecy that wasn't mentioned in the OT, but was accepted (at least by an Apostle) as prophecy. I believe the only prophecies about Christ acceptable to men of God would be from God. In other words, the prophets would not be inspired by demons. Draw from this that not every important theological point (if one considers legitimate prophecies about Christ important) must be in Scripture.

[Socrates]

Geez, Budge. All Winchester asked for here was one single little Bible quote saying that the Bible alone was to be used.

We're still waiting for that quote.

You have dozens of other threads in which to rant and rave against the Catholic Church, and advertize anti-Catholic books.
We just want the quote here.

[Winchester]

Thank you for your kind assistance

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079721' date='Sep 29 2006, 07:27 PM']
I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture
[/quote]
The name "Peter" means "Rock."
Peter (formerly Simon) is refered to as Peter (Rock) ever since Christ formally gave him this name.

[quote]Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock[/quote]
So Jesus said Peter was God??
Guess we Christians have been worshipping the wrong guy, then.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Amazing what happens when people chuck the Bible over board for oral traditions and old wives tales.[/quote]

The Jewish faith has a strong oral tradition in the Mishnah and the Gemara, the major rabbinical commentaries on Scripture. This is a tradition that Jesus Himself would have been very familiar with. He never condemnded it - he capitalised on it. When he taught in the temple courts, he was participating in it and propagating it, offering his own commentaries and interpretations.

Catholicism has continued this sacred oral tradition, which was present from the beginnings of Judaism and rooted in the fertile soil of the Torah itself. Protestantism has lost that tradition and is floating adrift from the roots of the faith.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079668' date='Sep 29 2006, 07:31 PM']
{I already provided Bible verses}
[/quote]No, you didn't provide any relevant bible verses. You provided a couple of bible verses which I read and interpreted every logical way I could think of. Even so, I could not find how they could even imply what we were asking you to provide. I posted this, and you neglected to respond. You still neglect to respond, and I doubt you will respond even to this.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079721' date='Sep 29 2006, 08:27 PM']
I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture and in Luke 9 the apostles even debate among themselves who shall be the greatest and Jesus basically answers none of you.[/quote]
Peter, or Kepha in Jesus' Aramaic language, means rock. Peter never claimed the title because it was given to him by Jesus. Jesus said in Matt 16:18, "And so I say to you, you are [Kepha] and upon this [kepha] I will build my Church..."

Peter is the only disciple to receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven from Jesus. Keys are an ancient symbol of power and authority alluded to a number of times in Scripture (Rev 1:18, Rev 20:1, Isaiah 22:22.) Peter's original name was Simon, which in Hebrew means "hearkening and listening". And Simon was listening when Jesus changed his name to Kepha, "a stone". Keep in mind that name changes in Bible meant a change in vocation. Abram to Abraham (Gen 17:5). Jacob to Israel (Gen 35:10). The tribes of Israel named after his 12 sons (Gen 35:22-26, Num 1:1-54).

In Luke 9, the apostles were acting vainly. They are worried about who will be greatest just after Jesus told them he was going to be handed over. Jesus wisely took the opportunity to teach them about humility by picking up a child.

Greatness or humility are not indicators of authority. They do not validate or justify authority. Authority is granted. Jesus granted Peter the authority to build His church. As leader of the Catholic Church, it's important all popes exercise their authority with humility. This is the importance of scripture you reference.

[quote]The problem here is I am not dealing with those who are seeking who examine their faith, but ones who have their minds already made up immired totally in slogans and the decision before we even begin...THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ALWAYS RIGHT.[/quote]
It can appear as slogans if you are hearing the same counter-arguments over and over. The reason why you are hearing the same counter-arguments over and over is two fold: 1) The Truth never changes. 2) The Church has been answering critics for 2,000 years. Catholics who understand apologetics have heard just about every argument against the Church. You are treading on ground many have taken before. Some of the Church's best Catholics are people are converts who once walked the same trail you are walking now. A few of them have books documenting where they once were and how they came home to the Catholic Church.

Is the Catholic Church always right? In matters of faith, yes. Otherwise, the gate of Hell have prevailed against it. Does this mean the Catholic Church is impeccable? Not at all. It is run by humans who can fail.

In regards to oral tradition, if we didn't have oral tradition, we wouldn't have a Bible.

[Winchester]

Budge, are you missing my post or should I give up because you don't have an answer?

[cmotherofpirl]

bump