To Budge - Interfaith Dialogue And Ecumenism

[Budge]

You seem to be dancing pretty fast to avoid a direct question.

what are you?

And since youve LEFT Catholicism why do you OPPOSE me on every thread for disagreeing with it?

Youre a ball of contradictions.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079313' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:36 PM']
You seem to be dancing pretty fast to avoid a direct question..
[/quote]





And what about Apoc 11:9?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079313' date='Sep 29 2006, 01:36 PM']
You seem to be dancing pretty fast to avoid a direct question.

what are you?

And since youve LEFT Catholicism why do you OPPOSE me on every thread for disagreeing with it?

Youre a ball of contradictions.
[/quote]
I'm not a ball of contradictions, I'm an anomaly.

And you thought you were clever.


Since I've 'left' catholicism, you can't understand why I oppose you. I oppose your denominational falsehoods the same I oppose the denominational falsehoods of catholicism. Just like your argument about 'father' is ridiculous that anyone with a 4th grade reading comprehension would understand, it's ridiculous for catholics to defend and justify every single thing the clergy does except if they aren't perfect with the rubrics of a liturgy.

Your denomination is hatred for catholicism while the catholics here are enamoured with the tittles and jots. Both of you try to explain why God likes just you and hates the others outside your denominational limits.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1079481' date='Sep 29 2006, 05:50 PM']


Your denomination is hatred for catholicism while the catholics here are enamoured with the tittles and jots. Both of you try to explain why God likes just you and hates the others outside your denominational limits.
[/quote]
Nope, that part you got wrong. Catholics know God loves us all.

[Mitchell_b55]

I have yet to receive an honest response.

This side debate, has definitely allowed an escape for Budge.
Anomaly, I thank you for your input, but please allow the debate to continue, however, one-sided it may be.

Budge, you make me sad. You are not being dishonest to us, but dishonest to yourself.

I'm not sure about other Catholics, but I never say something is spoken [i]ex cathedra[/i], unless it was spoken [i]ex cathedra[/i]. I never quote a council that is only partly trust worthy. I quote the fallible statements of theologians, when they are right, but they are not infallible. I use my OWN reason, and deductive ability to form my own conclusions. I may quote a theologian, but only if they have presented it in a manner I feel is satisfactory for the layman. I will quote the Pope, because he holds primacy, and I do not feel that I have the authority to judge him, however I never said that the pope was wrong in Assisi, only that he can be wrong, and that YOU should come to a conclusion on your own. I felt it was imprudent, nothing more. It is not my place to judge the Pope.

[b]BUDGE: [/b]

[quote]When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church.[/quote]

This is not true; a priest is a source of council, but one that can err. There council should be heeded in so far as it does not affect the faith of a person.

[quote]For the priest's lips [b]should[/b] keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts. [Malachi 2-7, emphasis added.] [/quote]

[quote] The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so [b]practice and observe whatever they tell you[/b], but [b]not what they do[/b]; for they preach, but do not practice. [Matthew 23:2-3, emphasis added.] [/quote]

[b]Did the earthly authority of the Old Testament pass away with the coming of Christ: [/b]

[quote] And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And [b] the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. [/b] And I will fasten him as a nail in a [b]sure place[/b]; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. [Isaiah 22:21-23, emphasis added.][/quote]

[quote] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And [b]I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/b] [Matthew 16:18-19, emphasis added.] [/quote]

[b]BUDGE:[/b]

[quote]... but when Protestants are to be confuted,
the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority.[/quote]

You ignore that I constantly quote and respect our "illustrious" men, and that I do not judge their authority and always accept that authority [within reason]. If the pope told me to murder a man, I would not listen to him. You have a very inaccurate understanding of infallibility and so does your "tabloid-quality" Mr. Elliott.

Thessalonian said something in a former post about "Primacy" versus "Infallibility." Perhaps you should ask him, and listen for once; I will try to show you, briefly.

[b]There are three levels to Magisterium:[/b]

[color="#990000"][1][/color] [b]Extraordinary Infallible Magisterium, i.e. Solemn Magisterium[/b] - Declarations by the Supreme Pontiff that employ papal infallibility are referred to as solemn papal definitions or ex cathedra teachings. These ought not to be confused with teachings that are infallible because of a solemn definition by an ecumenical council, or with teachings that are infallible in virtue of being taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. The Pontiff solemnly defines a dogma regarding faith and morality to be held by the entire Church, or when a Dogmatic Council convened and endorsed by a Pontiff formally defines a matter of faith and morals to be held by the entire Church.

[color="#990000"][2][/color] [b]Ordinary Infallible Magisterium, i.e. Universal Magisterium[/b] - This is implemented when the Pontiff, Ecumenical Council, Bishop, priest or any authorized teacher teaches [b]in accordance[/b] with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.
[color="#990000"][3] [/color] [b]Merely Authentic Ordinary Magisterium[/b] – This is employed when a Pontiff, Bishop, priest, or any authorized teacher, that does not adhere to the above two levels of infallibility is, merely, fallible, regardless of whether it is Authentic Magisterium, i.e. "authorized" teaching. Teaching at this level is owed obedience, in so far as obedience does not harm the Faith, lead to sin or the loss of souls, and does not contradict the Faith.

[b]Furthermore,[/b]

Pope St. Clement [ca. 99 a.d.] affirmed in a letter to the Corinthians:

[quote]Indeed you will give joy and gladness to us, if having become obedient to what we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will cut out the unlawful application of your zeal according to the exhortation which we have made in this epistle concerning peace and union [Denziger §41].[/quote]

[b]NB[/b] - The use of ‘We’ the Pluralis Majestatis.

[quote]...we have written through the Holy Spirit...[/quote]

Many non-Catholics, and even a few Catholics, erroneously consider the doctrine to teach that the Pope is infallible in everything he says. In reality, the use of papal infallibility is quite rare.

Catholic theologians concur that Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the [u]Immaculate Conception of Mary[/u], and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the [u]Assumption of Mary[/u] are instances of papal infallibility [i]ex cathedra[/i]. However, theologians diverge about what other documents meet the criteria.

After Pope John Paul II's apostolic letter [u]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/u] [On Reserving Priestly Ordination to Men Alone] was released in 1994, a few commentators speculated that this might be an exercise of papal infallibility. The [b]Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/b] seems to state it was not of itself an infallible decree. However, the Congregation stated that the content of this letter had already been taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium.

[b]BUDGE:[/b]

[quote]Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is. [/quote]

Nothing is more false, except perhaps that the Church is operated by the anti-Christ. It is very easy to discover the teachings of the Church. However, this does not mean that an erring human who professes the faith possesses complete theological knowledge and thus can spit it out like it ain't-no-thang, or that that teaching will be understood properly. By the way, I made a trip to a friend’s [i]conservative[/i] Baptist church the other day, and took a poll. Out of 396 people, 3 agreed with you Budge on your "anti-interfaith dialogue".

[b]NB[/b] - Many of them think I am a meddling Catholic who deceives people from their church. I don't believe we should base our faith in statistics and "hasty generalization," but I fight fire with fire in this instance, and neither will win.

[quote]WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES, HE IS FREQUENTLY TOLD THAT THE WRITER, THE POPE IN THIS CASE, IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCH.[/quote]

This is a defence tactic of a weak mind, and Catholics can have them too, that is weak minds. It does not mean that that is Churches belief, but means that they have an incomplete understanding of the matter, just like the protestant attacking them. These people must be corrected, just as the attacker should.

Budge, I hope that you will respond, and please do so in a CHARITABLE manner.

[Budge]

[quote]

Your denomination is hatred for catholicism while the catholics here are enamoured with the tittles and jots. Both of you try to explain why God likes just you and hates the others outside your denominational limits.
[/quote]

So you hate me and you cant stand them either....

So WHY are you on a CATHOLIC board?



[quote]
Budge, you make me sad. You are not being dishonest to us, but dishonest to yourself.[/quote]
[b]
TRANSLATION---->I dont like what you have to say Budge, so Im going to play Dr. Phil.
[/b]

[quote]
I use my OWN reason, and deductive ability to form my own conclusions. I may quote a theologian, but only if they have presented it in a manner I feel is satisfactory for the layman. [u]I will quote the Pope,[/u] because he holds primacy, and I do not feel that I have the authority to judge him, however [u]I never said that the pope was wrong in Assisi, only that he can be wrong, and that YOU should come to a conclusion on your own[/u]. I felt it was [u]imprudent, nothing more. It is not my place to judge the Pope.[/u][/quote]


Ah the mental backflips it takes to remain subservient to a religious leader, you KNOW is wrong.


[quote]You ignore that I constantly quote and respect our "illustrious" men, and that I do not judge their authority and always accept that authority [within reason].[b] If the pope told me to murder a man, I would not listen to him.[/b] You have a very inaccurate understanding of infallibility and so does your "tabloid-quality" Mr. Elliott.[/quote]

But if your Pope breaks the first commandment, hey...
[quote]
There are three levels to Magisterium:[/quote]

So What? Of course they have different layers to the onion, it helps in confusing folks.

[quote]This is a defence tactic of a weak mind, and Catholics can have them too, that is weak minds. It does not mean that that is Churches belief, but means that they have an incomplete understanding of the matter, just like the protestant attacking them. These people must be corrected, just as the attacker should.[/quote]

TRANSLATION of WEAK MIND---->ANYONE who isnt FOOLED BY THE VATICAN SMOKE AND MIRRORS.
[quote]
Budge, I hope that you will respond, and please do so in a CHARITABLE manner.[/quote]

Youd only consider me AGREEING TO BE CHARITABLE>

I won't

The mental backflips you poor folks go through to defend the indefensible are horrible enough to watch. Instead of actually looking at what is going on, the errors and evils of interfaithism, you make excuses and put your heads in the sand.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Budge