Fire Within

[scardella]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1083093' date='Oct 3 2006, 02:20 PM']
and I still suggest that God would not send something to distract you from completing a rosary you set out to complete. it'd be like God giving you this infused grace in the middle of mass and you no longer paying attention to any of the words of the liturgy... it'd be ludicrous and it wouldn't be from God. if you're praying a rosary, it is time for reasoning and meditation. if you are meditating this way, then as St. John of the Cross says, it is not time for reasoning. Both times continue to remain vitally important.[/quote]

I wouldn't call infused prayer a distraction. It's like saying that a phone call from the president is a distraction when you're trying to read his biography to learn about him. I've read accounts of saints going into ecstasies and infused prayer, losing contact w/ the outside world, directly triggered by receiving the Eucharist. (I want to say St. Faustina, at least, but I'm not positive on that.)

[quote]This type of prayer isn't for everybody, and those who do reach it are not somehow praying better or uniting with God better than the average Catholic clutching his rosary beads.
[/quote]

Fr. Dubay (and I'm not saying he's right for sure, but he makes a great argument for it) argues directly against that. Unfortunately, I don't have a complete enough grasp of it to be able to articulate it well or succinctly.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='scardella' post='1084138' date='Oct 4 2006, 05:55 PM']
I wouldn't call infused prayer a distraction. It's like saying that a phone call from the president is a distraction when you're trying to read his biography to learn about him. I've read accounts of saints going into ecstasies and infused prayer, losing contact w/ the outside world, directly triggered by receiving the Eucharist. (I want to say St. Faustina, at least, but I'm not positive on that.)[/quote]

well the Eucharist is the culmination of the mass, I understand that. that'd be like going into ecstacy upon the completion of the last mystery of the rosary but before you had said the salve regina... but would such a thing happen at the credo during the mass? and you just would no longer be supposed to focus and pay attention to the words and form of the liturgy? no, I don't believe such a thing would be from God.

it would be a distraction if it caused you not to complete a rosary that you started. God would not interrupt you that way, IMHO.

[quote name='scardella' post='1084138' date='Oct 4 2006, 05:55 PM']
Fr. Dubay (and I'm not saying he's right for sure, but he makes a great argument for it) argues directly against that. Unfortunately, I don't have a complete enough grasp of it to be able to articulate it well or succinctly.
[/quote]
I believe he is wrong if he attempts to assert that his personal spirituality, or even the spirituality of any one saint, is better than the spirituality of any other person, or of any other saint. If I have a spirituality like St. Dominic and ferverently pray 15 mysteries of the rosary every day, that doesn't make me any less united to God than one who has a spirituality like St. John of the Cross. I would go so far as to argue, if this is what he is saying, that he is caught up in the spirit which is directly condemned by the inspired pen of St. Paul in the Scriptures.

perhaps many are called to this type of spirituality. good, such people will probably not find as much fulfillment in other types of spirituality as they will in this type which they are called to. but others are not called to this type of spirituality. all are called to a union with God, but "infused prayer" is not the only, nor necessarily the best, way to approach that.

[Aloysius]

I'd just like to clarify (and again remind everyone I haven't even read this book so this is not a critique of the book, but of the positions of the book as I understand them as they have been related to me here): if the good father has merely said that it is possible for everyone, then I have no problem. if he has said that it is preferable for everyone, I think he might be overstepping there. if he has said that it is a better way of approaching God than other legitimate spiritualities within the Church, then you may apply what I said above about his position (that his spirituality or even the spirituality of St John of the Cross is better than others' within the Church) being condemned by St. Paul (see: divisions where some say "I follow Paul" or "I follow Kephas" or "I follow Jesus") this would, of course, reflect nothing ill towards his actual spirituality, just his attitude that it is better than others' spiritualities.

[scardella]

To clarify a little bit, Dubay argues that teresian/sanjuan teachings on mystical/infused prayer are a universal call bound up directly in the Gospel. He even goes so far as to say that it is simply a more concrete look at natural prayer progression; ie it is not a spirituality, [i]per se[/i], in the sense that you have an Ignatian or a Franciscan spirituality.

If he is right, then the average person should aspire to receive mystical contemplation, and it wouldn't be a matter of "following Kephas" or "following Paul" or "following Jesus". If he's wrong, he seems well intentioned. I haven't yet found any problems with it. I can say that I haven't run across anything that would give me doubts about his orthodoxy. He quotes Scripture, Vatican II, saints (at least one or two other than our friendly Carmelites; and I'm not finished w/ it).

Like I said, though, I'd recommend reading it to see what he has to say, because I'm not quite familiar enough to actually argue the point.

Edited October 5, 2006 by scardella

[Aloysius]

I would have a problem with that, because that would mean a majority of the faithful over 2000 years, and indeed a great number of saints, had never 'progressed' into this better type of union with God. this is one way of responding to and approaching the universal call of prayer and union with God found in the gospels, but it is not the only way nor is it necessarily the best way for everyone. it is [i]a[/i] spirituality compatible with the gospels, not [i]the[/i] spirituality compatible with the gospels.

[scardella]

All I can suggest is that you actually read the book and agree or disagree w/ him.

[Aloysius]

well I've read St. John of the Cross (Dark Night) and St. Theresa of Avila (Interior Castle)... I suppose this is the spirituality he promoting... I don't really have time at the moment to read his book. From my reading of those two saints, however, I am fairly certain this is not my type of spirituality... but at this point I'm just a thread hijacker , I just wanted to point out that the rosary and other formed prayers are never "graduated away from" into something "better", and that I don't think you should stop mid-rosary because of this type of prayer...