Norm Of Understanding Amoung Catholics

[jesussaves]

I remember talking to a fellow here who's name escapes me who convinced me that perhaps maybe faith and works beliefs betwen typical protestants and Catholics are not different. After all, even martin luther said that we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. That is how the CC's doctrine may not be in err.

Do you all think the norm with Catholocs are understanding works properly? If it's not, then people are not trusting in Christ properly and the CC is to blame, even if not as a doctinal error.

I wonder how well people hear that Jesus is savior, but do not understand it because of the emphasis on works, especially from people who wrongly believe the works gain merit for salvation.

I would be willing to bet the majority here even ebelieve in works not like that fellow here taught.

[Laudate_Dominum]

you may be surprised. I know a lot of Catholics and I doubt any of the ones I know think that they are earning salvation.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I agree, the confusion that arose due to Martin Luther has been ended. we are saved by grace through faith shown by our works, I do not believe I know any Catholics who do not understand this.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

most catholics I know would be quick to tell you that they are not (and cannot) earn their salvation

[jswranch]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1075843' date='Sep 26 2006, 03:35 PM']
That is how the CC's doctrine may not be in err...
[/quote]

Glad you brought this up. I just stubled into [url="http://www.salvationhistory.com/library/apologetics/SolaGratiaSoloChristo.cfm"]this article on a Scott Hahn website about faith and works written by a Reformed seminary student.[/url]

A major point he makes is that one cannot compare faith vs faith&works, but requires a different mindset. Here is the highlight:

[quote]In many cases, the issue is naively boiled down to justification by faith, on the one hand (evangelicalism), versus justification by works, on the other hand (Roman Catholicism). This crass caricature has little basis in reality, and hampers the cause for theological truth and Christian unity. In this essay then, I will summarize the Roman Catholic teaching on justification.[/quote]

PS. the writter is now Catholic.

[Era Might]

Faith means you submit your life entirely to God, which means you obey his will. Hence, if you have submitted your life to God, then that means you have accepted the duty to fulfill the good works he has given you, and live life according to his commandments. This is the essence of Catholic spiritual life, to submit to everything God wills. So, yes, Catholics understand this correctly. Works must flow from faith in the same way the fruit flows from the true. If you do not bring forth fruit, which is in your power to do or fail to do, then your faith is in vain, as St. James tells us.

Works do not so much gain "merit" for salvation as they do ensure it. Salvation is a free gift from God to all who choose to live by its conditions (that we obey him). When we obey God, we continue to live in the eternal life that is present in our souls, and if we die in that life, we will inherit it for all eternity. If we fail to live in that life, and die outside of it (because of grave sin against God's will), then we cannot inherit eternal life, even if we have believed, because Our Lord himself told the Apostles, "he who loves me will obey my commandments".

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I'm surprised that Budge or Euty haven't joined this one.

[Aloysius]

even the little old ladies lighting votive candles and praying rosaries all the time know they do not earn their salvation. they might not be apt to be most theologically precise in describing something to you, but they certainly (the majority at least) dont think they're earning their salvation but that they're caring for their faith.

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1075843' date='Sep 26 2006, 05:35 PM']
I remember talking to a fellow here who's name escapes me who convinced me that perhaps maybe faith and works beliefs betwen typical protestants and Catholics are not different. After all, even martin luther said that we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. That is how the CC's doctrine may not be in err.

Do you all think the norm with Catholocs are understanding works properly? If it's not, then people are not trusting in Christ properly and the CC is to blame, even if not as a doctinal error.

I wonder how well people hear that Jesus is savior, but do not understand it because of the emphasis on works, especially from people who wrongly believe the works gain merit for salvation.

I would be willing to bet the majority here even ebelieve in works not like that fellow here taught.
[/quote]

What you are running into here is a highly complex issue that some of the Protestants on this board refuse to understand, so they simply get frustrated and write off all things Catholic, which is a grave mistake.

Catholicism is not necessarily complex when explained simply, Catholics, as Christians, believe that man has been lost through original sin, is in dire need of salvation, that our salvation is made secure through the "new covenant" in the blood of Christ and his sacrifice on Calvary, the perfect completion of all old covenants (Noahic, Abrahamic, and Davidic), and man is saved only through faith in Jesus Christ whom is the second person of the Trinity, the only mediator of the new covenant.

Now what gets sticky is when Martin Luther throws in that word "Alone" with "Faith" as "faith alone" when defined by many Protestants is actually anti-biblical (James 2:24). Now Catholics recognize that man cannot come to God without God first coming to man, and that man can only come to God with the help of God (merit in cooperation with grace, which is opposed to Calvinism; see the Catechism, part 3 for more on this). Now faith alone is defined as such to make the moral life of man of no consequence to man's salvation, yet the two, as you recognized are so bound together that they cannot be separated (for some Protestants this means that living a life opposed to God means one was never saved, this however also has serious problems and favors legalism instead of covenant theology). St. Paul over and over that faith means more than lip service (alter calls), but faith is a total surrender of ones life to God, so much so, as radical as Christianity is, that we literally must be reborn into new life. It gets much more complex from here on out, but then I ask to Protestants who believe the study of God (theo-ology) is automatically corrupting - what do you want? The paradox is that, while God is ultimately simple, he is far beyond our understanding. This is exactly why the Fathers of the early Christian community are so valuable to gain insight from. They fought with their lives for the doctrines that we so dearly hold to be true even across Catholic and Protestant boarders (the hypostatic union, the Trinity, the sacrificial atonement of Christ). I'll leave it at that though.