I Came Out Of What You Are Going Into!

[N/A Gone]

A.) Lets go..If I am wrong I will appreciate the education on it. But I have been experienced in this debate from both sides already.

b.) A virus takes a healthy body and makes it sick. A cancer perverts the "message" part of the cells and converts other new cells with this new message until those cells are no longer functional. In extreme cases this can lead to death for the whole body if the cancer is not removed.

Budge is seperate from her choosen epistemology. I prove this by citing that she has been parts of numerous contridictory epistemologies. The fundamentialist movement is a virus/cancer. I stand by that. I did not call Budge, the lady she is, a virus. That would make no sense in my analogy. She is the healthy organ that has been infected and she can get healthy again. In her role as a fundi she spreads the virus.

This is not pro-catholic, anti prot ramblings. I was more aggresive about this as an evangelical. Fundamentalism is a hateful, isolationist perversion of the christian message.

[Budge]

To Rev:

Actually Ive read about Mark Noll....in doing opposition research. Yeah I know Im supposed to be some hick out in the hollar, who's never reads supposely but Ive read [i]"Scandal of the Evangelical Mind"[/i]. Didnt agree with it one iota....

Intellectual snobbery taken to the 100th power, basically the thesis "You evangelicals are DUMB!", you arent as enlightened like the rest of us. Also the book makes a cariacature of evangelicals far too much, not realizing distinct differences within the evangelical community. Not every Evangelical Christian is a Neo-Con Dominionist, nor is everyone pre-trib.

I know every Catholic board has a resident modernistic Protestant who eschews Christain fundamentalism and looks down upon the evangelical community. Revelation 17 in action, Prots that have rejected everything the Reformation was about and have run home to Rome, if not officially at least in spirit., {and no I dont believe everything the Reformers did was perfect either}

But in this modernistic interfaith Revelation 17 world of Catholicism joined at the hand with apsotate Protestantism, Bible Christians are seen as a cancer and a virus. This is nothing new to me. In fact as I said before the world is dividing into two, those in bondage to false religions, and those who are Christian. I have run a message board long enough to know that Catholics and apostate Prots will join with those of any false religions including at one point on my message board a Christian missionary hating Hindu to denounce Biblical Christianity.

[b]Ill be a VIRUS for Christ anyhow...a virus invades, takes over, changes and redirects invading the diseased body of Revelation 17 and 18[/b]...

Martin Luther and Huss and pals to see these modern supposely Prot intellectuals kowtowing to Rome must be spinning in their graves {Im speaking metaphorically here as I believe Luther did make it to heaven despite his faults} to see all these Prot theologians bowing to the papacy which they taught was antichrist. So Rev, right now you are betraying everything your Reformer forefathers taught.

One message the world gives against true Christianity is its claim of HATE. The United Nations and these apostates to Christianity are even joined together in their desire to rescind Christian missionary efforts and end evangelization and what they sneeringly refer to as prolestyzation.

Am I impressed with theologian credentials? Not really. I know many here dont hesitate to use the biggest words they can come up with to impress others and make sure to tell us the long years of school they went through, but really all it has done is led them to depend more on human wisdom rather then God's and led to a pomposity of knowing it all. The smartest people in the world to me, are those who admit what they do not know. Who do not automatically think everything they hear in liberal academia, including modernistic seminaries, both Catholic and Prot as being the gospel. Speaking in riddles and self-contradictory sentences...Rev, a healthy organ cannnot be infected.....


Why is that?

Because the Unitarian Universalist association, basically is a meeting point for the liberal intelligensia, including an endless slew of academics, philosophers and professors. There too anyone who didnt follow the liberal PC gospel was deemed a HATER and a VIRUS on the planet. {and I had to repent of my own pride while in this denomination, though I was not an academic, I was part of it} There are many who believe themselves to be a Christian, who are as much enemies of the gospel, and they use, Ive noticed almost the same exact language, following the Lucis Trust, Alice Bailey handbook.

I'm already spoken for and I can not be deceived by false Prot preachers like Rev, who are more of their dry dusty tomes, but totally lack the Holy Spirit, The thing that most appalls me, is yet another modernistic false preacher will be unleashed upon the world, to lead more away from God.

One similarity all these folks have is their PRIDE, Jesus condemned scribes for a reason, and PRIDE was one of their most prevailing sins. So when I see a theologian here literally bragging and writing sentences like this...

[quote]I lived in your world and excelled.[/quote],

I have no problem realizing what I am dealing with.

Some may think as they study for their endless theology degrees, God is going to be impressed.

He's not.

[b]1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.[/b]

[b]1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?[/b]

Edited September 28, 2006 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1077911' date='Sep 28 2006, 12:55 PM']But in this modernistic interfaith Revelation 17 world of Catholicism joined at the hand with apsotate Protestantism, Bible Christians are seen as a cancer and a virus. This is nothing new to me. In fact as I said before the world is dividing into two, those in bondage to false religions, and those who are Christian.[/quote]The problem here is that your definitions of terms are moving targets.

On the one hand, you've got a visible one world religion conspiracy theory which never really materializes. Instead, everyone and his brother are secretly and [i]unknowingly[/i] members of an invisible one-world religion, with absolutely nothing in common, except maybe that they are not Independent Baptists.

On the other hand, you've got claims of an invisible Christian Church that simultaneously includes almost every nominal Christian, when the "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect"]bandwagon effect (link)[/url]" is needed; and yet, almost no one except Independent Baptists merit being called [i]real[/i] Christians, since so many Christians (in the world of Budge) have been led astray by "Mystery Babylon".

Apparently, the demarcation line between "Mystery Babylon" and "true believer" is to be determined and changed based on the mood of Budge at any given time. This is the natural result of personal interpretation with no visible Church authority. Ironically, the disunity of Protestantism reminds me of many-headed beast of Rev 17 which leads so many away from Christ and toward idolotry.

Budge, you have left behind your relationship with Christ and now serve your idol, which needs to be named: it is an obsessive search for the next conspiracy theory. I pray that you will turn your life around and be more Christ-centered and less conspiracy-centered.

[Mateo el Feo]

Forgot to respond to this...

[quote name='Budge' post='1076736' date='Sep 27 2006, 03:38 PM']There are two religions in the world in essence Christianity and MYSTERY BABYLON, false religions of the world. Most of the adherents have no idea of what they are really in so no there is no secret joining the one world religion. While I was UU, I simply did not know which applies to the majority.
[b]
Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.[/b][/quote]OK, so either there [u]is[/u] a one-world religion or there [u]is not[/u] a one-world religion. Your Gospel quote doesn't say anything about a one-world religion. Didn't Eutychus say he had a special decoder ring for self-contradicting theories?

[quote name='Budge' post='1076736' date='Sep 27 2006, 03:38 PM']Call it love or concern, I do not want to see anyone duped by the antichrist and right now Im warning the one or two who may listen....

I give the same exact message to any other false religions, they need Jesus Christ to be saved, they need to come out of their false religion and put their TRUST totally in Him.[/quote]Even if you deny it, there are certain additional dogmatic/doctrinal positions that you would expect people to consent to. We Catholics are honest enough to publicly stick to these positions (e.g. the Trinity, the Incarnation, etc).

Your minimalist expectations (e.g. needing Jesus Christ to be saved, trusting Jesus, etc) includes all sorts of splinter protestant or psuedo-Christian religions. Mormons trust Jesus and believe that He gives them salvation ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints"]link[/url]). So do Christadelphians ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians"]link[/url]). So do Christian Scientists ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science"]link[/url]). So do Jehovah's Witnesses ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrines_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses#Beliefs_about_Jesus_Christ"]link[/url]). And so on.

You're bare-minimum beliefs could include just about anyone...maybe this is part of some one-world religion plot hatched by the local independent Baptist pastor? On the other hand, you spend all day excommunicating "false Christians" from the Church of Budge, so who knows...it could go either way.

[Budge]

[quote]
Your minimalist expectations (e.g. needing Jesus Christ to be saved, trusting Jesus, etc) includes all sorts of splinter protestant or psuedo-Christian religions. Mormons trust Jesus and believe that He gives them salvation (link). So do Christadelphians (link). So do Christian Scientists (link). So do Jehovah's Witnesses (link). And so on.[/quote]

Heres the foundation of my expectations..
[b][size=2]
2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].[/size][/b]

Mormonism has added to the gospel and changed basic things, ie Lucifer is the brother of Jesus in Mormon teaching. Mormonism also teaches every man will become a God--the lie of the graden. Definitely fits the criteria of another spirit, another gospel.

Jehovah Witnesses deny that Jesus Christ is divine, have changed the Bible into their own false translation, changed core teachings, teach they are the one true church same as Rome, another spirit, another gospel.

and so forth and so on.

What all these groups hold in common?

1. Infallible men--teachings of their church traditions equal or above scripture...Mormons have their top 12 patriarchs and top PROPHET whose word is law.

2. ADDITIONS and DELETIONS to and from scripture, false books, drastic changes to Gods Word. Mormonism has the book of Mormon.

[Winchester]

There are no infallible men

The Bible was written by men

The Bible is not infallible

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078564' date='Sep 28 2006, 11:02 PM']
...teach they are the one true church same as Rome, another spirit, another gospel.

What all these groups hold in common?

1. Infallible men--teachings of their church traditions equal or above scripture...Mormons have their top 12 patriarchs and top PROPHET whose word is law.

2. ADDITIONS and DELETIONS to and from scripture, false books, drastic changes to Gods Word. Mormonism has the book of Mormon.
[/quote]

First, Rome teaches that she is the one true Church, as you have said. The difference is that we have taught that since Christ's foundation of the Church. The others claim to be revivals of the original Church. Wouldn't you expect for Christ's Church to teach that it was the one true Church since the beginning? We're the only one to do so.

1. We don't hold the pope above Scripture. We hold him as Scripture's servant. As for Tradition, it is the lense through which we see Scripture properly. For an interesting foreshadowing, look to the Old Testament. It was written in Hebrew, which of course has no vowels. That means that for the Hebrews to interpret it, they needed to have an idea what it said that was passed down orally, so that when looking at the words, they would know what vowels to fill in as they read. Thus, oral Tradition passed on the same message as the Scriptures, but was used to interpret the Scriptures. The Christian Tradition works similarly. It's not that Scripture and Tradition are equal (though they are); it's that they're inseparable.

2. It's a good thing Catholicism (and Catholicism alone) has retained the original canon of Scripture.

[Budge]

[quote]1. We don't hold the pope above Scripture. We hold him as Scripture's servant.[/quote]

Are you so sure about that?
[b]
937 The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (CD 2).[/b]

[cmotherofpirl]

as minister he holds the fort til the Master returns... somebody has to be in charge

[Budge]

The Holy Spirit is in charge.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079195' date='Sep 29 2006, 02:25 PM']
The Holy Spirit is in charge.
[/quote]
Yes, the Holy Spirit is in charge. Very good. The Holy Spirit guides the pope in his authority over the Church and in his service to the Gospel. You see, the mission of the Church is to spread the Gospel, and the pope is the chief authority on earth in that mission.

[Budge]

[size=2]Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.[/size]

This doesnt say the Comforter will tell the Pope and then the Pope will teach you all things...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079195' date='Sep 29 2006, 02:25 PM']
The Holy Spirit is in charge.
[/quote]

yep, He is. But he still needs a current human to be the visible head on earth. Successor to St Peter.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079202' date='Sep 29 2006, 02:31 PM']
[size=2]Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.[/size]

This doesnt say the Comforter will tell the Pope and then the Pope will teach you all things...
[/quote]
Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. The pope is one of them. Jesus was saying to the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would come to them and teach them, so that they could teach others (under the Holy Spirit's guidance). It's a "both and" situation, otherwise, Matthew 28 is irrelevant.

[Budge]

[quote]But he still needs a current human to be the visible head on earth. Successor to St Peter.[/quote]

Where is that in scripture?

says the complete opposite...

Dictionary Aids
Gal 4:1 ¶ Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:2 [b]But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.[/b]
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Even Jesus told the apostles there wouldnt be one in charge of the rest...

Luk 22:24 ¶ And there was also a strife among them, [b]which of them should be accounted the greatest.[/b]
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

Luk 22:26 [b]But ye [shall] not [be] so[/b]: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.