Concerning Instruments At Mass...

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Jabberwocky' post='1074980' date='Sep 25 2006, 07:02 PM']
Does anybody else here teach songs before Mass? For whatever reason, the choir director at my church thinks that it is essential for us to teach the congregation a song that we have never played previously. [b]That usually entails listening to the melody, then singing the melody, then trying to sing it with the accompaniment, and then singing it over and over and over...all before Mass. [/b]

Me, I think it's a little annoying to have a cantor telling you how to sing a song while you are tying to collect your thoughts and pray before Mass. When the schedule says that I should teach a song, usually the cantor and I decide to tell the people we are learning a new song, ask them to join in, and just sing it through.

Last Sunday I was supposed to teach a new song and didn't even bother (it scheduled to be only a cantor solo anyway). Later I heard that at the 8 o'clock Mass the choir had them practicing it past the time Mass was supposed to start.

What thinks you of this practice?
[/quote]
you amuse me. i really don't think something like that is necessary. we certainly don't do that and our congregation is just fine. most of the people who are inclined to learn or want to learn the new music will generally figure it out by the end of the piece. we used to practice putting our hymnals away quietly after mass was over in gradeschool but that's the closest i've come to experiencing something like that. i'd find that annoying.

[quote name='AlterDominicus' post='1075116' date='Sep 25 2006, 09:32 PM']
Yes during mass.
[/quote]
You mean... hand motions, jumping up and down, and clapping together... during Mass? (I'm trying to make sure I understand.)

[Cam42]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1074524' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:02 AM']
I know this discussion was going on in another thread and I'm not sure there was ever a real conclusion. It is not 'against the rules' to have guitars or pianos at Mass. They are certainly not preferred by many of the more traditional Catholics but they have not been 'outlawed'. Sometimes when you read through the Questions and Answers section you have to be very aware of stated facts and opinions with persuasive arguments to back them up. Cam doesn't like the guitars and he's made that very clear. However, they are allowed.

I'm still not sure what I think about it all but I know that they're allowed.
[/quote]

Guitars can be debated, but the piano has been expressly forbidden for use in the Mass.
[quote name='Tra Le Sollecitudini #19']The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.[/quote]

So, that takes care of the piano and several other instruments, which are not appropriate.

Also the case can be made that the guitar is not acceptable based upon this:
[quote name='Tra Le Sollecitudini #20']It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the place-provided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.[/quote]

Now, what is the most prominent instrument in a band. It certainly isn't the triangle, or the flute (well, Jethro Tull excepted), but it is the guitar. Now, if it is strictly forbidden to have bands play, then it would hold that those instruments which comprise a/the band would also be strictly forbidden.

This document that I am quoting is not some archaic document, but rather one from the 20th century. [url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/17/DocumentIndex/360"]Tra Le Sollecitudini[/url] is the document.

Here are the other defining documents:

Musicae Sacrae Disciplina
Musicam Sacram
De Musica Sacra
Mediator Dei

Why are we not bound to understand these documents properly and apply them to the more contemporary documents? We are very willing to make sure that all other Catechetical material and all other Liturgical material is adhered to for orthodoxy's sake, why not these?

[franciscanheart]

I'll be completely honest and say that I've never seen that the piano was forbidden to be used during Mass. It seems so odd to me!

[cappie]

Music in antiquity was always an improvisatory affair. The music theory of the time was radically different from Gregorian Chant (that system originated around the 8th-9th centuries): melodies were made of groupings of short melodic figures and strung together like stringing a necklace. There was no written music until the first lineless neumes appeared. Written organ music appeared first in the 14th century.

The ancient church had a prohibition of instrumental music, which remains in force in the Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic churches today. The organ was probably first used during processions (with the Emperor). When it began to be used at liturgy, it was used before, after and perhaps at times such as the Elevation. The organ's role in the performance of organum and early polyphony may have been to provide drones or the chant melody in slow note values, however, there is nothing in the manuscripts that call for any line to be performed instrumentally.

The organ wasn't used to accompany congregational singing, partly because by the time the organ was common congregational singing had died in the Western church; the monks did all the singing. As the organ became an integral part of the liturgy, it took on a role of alternation (beginning with the first recorded keyboard music in 1325) with the choir: the schola would sing one verse of a hymn, or mass movement and the organ would play a short piece (frequently improvised) that took the place of the alternate verses. This became one of the main liturgical use of the organ in Catholic circles, in all countries, until Vatican II. The improvisation that accompanied the Low Mass was a post-Tridentine development. Catholic choirs generally sang unaccompanyied until the Baroque era, and then organ accompanyiment was sporadic, particularly when the a cappella tradition developed in Palestrina was the model in many places (which meant no accompaniment)..

The organ came to be used in Protestant circles only in Lutheran and Anglican traditions. Calvinist (Reformed) traditions forbade instrumental music until 1795. Solo organ music was written on various hymn melodies almost as the hymns were written and used as introductions to the hymns themselves as well as pieces in their own right. One theory is the chorales in Bach's collection the _Orgelbuchlein_, may have taken the place of congregational singing in the ducal chapel he played at the time of their composition (from Robert Clark's introduction to his _Orgelbuchlein_ edition). We're not sure when the organ became primary accompanyiment for congregational singing, but it was probably the 18th century (the chorales may have been sung unaccompanied in Bach's day). Organs accompanied choirs (continuo style, much like reading a lead sheet today, except from the bottom up) from the beginning of the Reformation (which wasn't to far from the beginning of the Baroque--a hundred years), although the a cappella tradition was still important even in Germany (they even did Palestrina in Lutheran churches!).

The pattern we know of where the organ provides the support for congregational singing probably comes from no earlier than the 17th century, and then only in German and English liturgical Protestant traditions. Accompanying Catholic congregations from the organ wasn't common until the 20th century, when the congregations started singing again.

NB The quote about the piano, unless I am mistaken, was taken from the Instruction of Pope St Pius X this is no longer in force

Edited September 26, 2006 by cappie

[goldenchild17]

Maybe it's not considered infallible, but...

[quote]Tra Le Sollecitudini - VI. Organ and instruments
15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.

16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.

17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces.

18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.

19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

21. In processions outside the church the Ordinary may give permission for a band, provided no profane pieces be executed. It would be desirable in such cases that the band confine itself to accompanying some spiritual canticle sung in Latin or in the vernacular by the singers and the pious associations which take part in the procession.[/quote]

Edited September 26, 2006 by goldenchild17

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='cappie' post='1075288' date='Sep 26 2006, 12:36 AM']
Music in antiquity was always an improvisatory affair. The music theory of the time was radically different from Gregorian Chant (that system originated around the 8th-9th centuries): melodies were made of groupings of short melodic figures and strung together like stringing a necklace. There was no written music until the first lineless neumes appeared. Written organ music appeared first in the 14th century.

The ancient church had a prohibition of instrumental music, which remains in force in the Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic churches today. The organ was probably first used during processions (with the Emperor). When it began to be used at liturgy, it was used before, after and perhaps at times such as the Elevation. The organ's role in the performance of organum and early polyphony may have been to provide drones or the chant melody in slow note values, however, there is nothing in the manuscripts that call for any line to be performed instrumentally.

The organ wasn't used to accompany congregational singing, partly because by the time the organ was common congregational singing had died in the Western church; the monks did all the singing. As the organ became an integral part of the liturgy, it took on a role of alternation (beginning with the first recorded keyboard music in 1325) with the choir: the schola would sing one verse of a hymn, or mass movement and the organ would play a short piece (frequently improvised) that took the place of the alternate verses. This became one of the main liturgical use of the organ in Catholic circles, in all countries, until Vatican II. The improvisation that accompanied the Low Mass was a post-Tridentine development. Catholic choirs generally sang unaccompanyied until the Baroque era, and then organ accompanyiment was sporadic, particularly when the a cappella tradition developed in Palestrina was the model in many places (which meant no accompaniment)..

The organ came to be used in Protestant circles only in Lutheran and Anglican traditions. Calvinist (Reformed) traditions forbade instrumental music until 1795. Solo organ music was written on various hymn melodies almost as the hymns were written and used as introductions to the hymns themselves as well as pieces in their own right. One theory is the chorales in Bach's collection the _Orgelbuchlein_, may have taken the place of congregational singing in the ducal chapel he played at the time of their composition (from Robert Clark's introduction to his _Orgelbuchlein_ edition). We're not sure when the organ became primary accompanyiment for congregational singing, but it was probably the 18th century (the chorales may have been sung unaccompanied in Bach's day). Organs accompanied choirs (continuo style, much like reading a lead sheet today, except from the bottom up) from the beginning of the Reformation (which wasn't to far from the beginning of the Baroque--a hundred years), although the a cappella tradition was still important even in Germany (they even did Palestrina in Lutheran churches!).

The pattern we know of where the organ provides the support for congregational singing probably comes from no earlier than the 17th century, and then only in German and English liturgical Protestant traditions. Accompanying Catholic congregations from the organ wasn't common until the 20th century, when the congregations started singing again.

NB The quote about the piano, unless I am mistaken, was taken from the Instruction of Pope St Pius X this is no longer in force
[/quote]
Wow! That's really interesting stuff, Cappie. Thanks! Did you type that all out for us or did you find it elsewhere? If you found it, will you link us?

And about the possible instruction of Pope St Pius X, can someone confirm that?

[cappie]

Part of an article I saved doing work on Church music about 2003. I don't have a link.

[franciscanheart]

Ah. Well it was very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

[Aloysius]

I believe Cam's quote is a principal source for the Vatican II document on sacred music... and as such he proposes (and I agree) that that conciliar document ought to be understood in the light of its source document from tradition... because unless it specifically contradicts its source document it clearly intends to draw upon that document as if the whole thing were of merit.

[franciscanheart]

So what do the Vatican II documents say? (Note: I understand what you are saying but I also would want to know what the new documents, the documents sourcing these other documents, stated. How are there so many churches out of line if there are clearly defined documents?)

[cappie]

The following is the current discipline, in general form [open to specific local adaptations], from the Vatican's "Musicam sacram" ("Sacred Music") of 1967.


VI. Sacred Instrumental Music

62. Musical instruments can be very useful in sacred celebrations, whether they accompany the singing or whether they are played as solo instruments.

"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things.

"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful." [quoted from Vatican II]

63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.

Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

64. The use of musical instruments to accompany the singing can act as a support to the voices, render participation easier, and achieve a deeper union in the assembly. However, their sound should not so overwhelm the voices that it is difficult to make out the text; and when some part is proclaimed aloud by the priest or a minister by virtue of his role, they should be silent.

65. In sung or said Masses, the organ, or other instrument legitimately admitted, can be used to accompany the singing of the choir and the people; it can also be played solo at the beginning before the priest reaches the altar, at the Offertory, at the Communion, and at the end of Mass. The same rule, with the necessary adaptations, can be applied to other sacred celebrations.

66. The playing of these same instruments as solos is not permitted in Advent, Lent, during the Sacred Triduum and in the Offices and Masses of the Dead.

67. It is highly desirable that organists and other musicians should not only possess the skill to play properly the instrument entrusted to them: they should also enter into and be thoroughly aware of the spirit of the liturgy, so that even when playing ex tempore, they will enrich the sacred celebration according to the true nature of each of its parts, and encourage the participation of the faithful.

Also Pope John Paul has a letter on the centenery of the MOTO PROPRIO of Pope Pius X 2003

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/2003/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_20031203_musica-sacra_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...a-sacra_en.html[/url]


From the document:

14. Again at the practical level, the Motu Proprio whose centenary it is also deals with the question of the musical instruments to be used in the Latin Liturgy. Among these, it recognizes without hesitation the prevalence of the pipe organ and establishes appropriate norms for its use[42]. The Second Vatican Council fully accepted my holy Predecessor's approach, decreeing: "The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendour to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up people's minds to God and to higher things"[43].

Nonetheless, it should be noted that contemporary compositions often use a diversity of musical forms that have a certain dignity of their own. To the extent that they are helpful to the prayer of the Church they can prove a precious enrichment. Care must be taken, however, to ensure that instruments are suitable for sacred use, that they are fitting for the dignity of the Church and can accompany the singing of the faithful and serve to edify them.

[Aloysius]

Cam would be better to answer here... I'm just repeating an argument I think I remember him putting forth once.

I believe it basically goes like this: Vatican II drew directly from Pius X's motu proprio, Pius X's moto proprio gave pride of place to the pipe organ and rejected a few very specific instruments as well as the use of bands, therefore when Vatican II, drawing on this motu proprio, permits the use of other instruments it is not necessarily permitting the use of those instruments specifically forbidden by Pius X. it did not abrogate pius x's norm because it never specifically said "allow the piano, allow bands, allow drums and cymbals et cetera..."; therefore if there can be made complimentary music with other instruments than the pipe organ such as the violin or other orchestral instruments (instruments which are not specifically mentioned by Pius X or which is not part of a band)

this is my understanding of where Cam draws his assertion that the piano is still not permitted to be used in mass and that the guitar (i.e. specifically a band with a guitar) is dubious.

[franciscanheart]

Having read what Cappie provided and understanding the source behind it, it would seem to me that you are right when saying that things such as bands and band instruments (instruments that are recognized as being suitable for secular music) are not appropriate in worship. (I've never supported anything like that during worship and never will - God help me.)

I apologize if I am being dense but did Pius X forbid use of the piano? If he did not, where are we drawing the conclusion that pianos would not be permitted? They are not, at least in my mind, a band instrument. A keyboard is generally part of secular music these days but I don't see a grand being considered a normal part of secular music. I think that sayin a grand is normal for secular music and therefore unfit for worship is a lot like saying that about an organ. Plenty of rock groups have used the organ in their music but we still hold the organ in high esteem.

Am I making sense or I am showing off my ignorance?

And another question while we're talking about these texts...

To quote what Cappie has provided us:
[quote]64. The use of musical instruments to accompany the singing can act as a support to the voices, render participation easier, and achieve a deeper union in the assembly. However, their sound should not so overwhelm the voices that it is difficult to make out the text; and when some part is proclaimed aloud by the priest or a minister by virtue of his role, they should be silent.[/quote]
During the Mass when we say the Our Father and the priest speaks (before the people say, "for the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory is yours forever and ever"), is it permissable for instruments to play softly? Would this be considered 'some part [that] is proclaimed aloud by the priest or a minister by the virtue of his role'?

I am so ignorant when it comes to things such as these. Please excuse me.

[Cam42]

[quote]I apologize if I am being dense but did Pius X forbid use of the piano?[/quote]

Yes he did. I provided the quote earlier and a link to the quote. It is in Tra Le Sollecitudini. Look to my earlier post.

Also, this document has not been suppressed. Cappie, I would like to see the sources which show that it has been.

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1075394' date='Sep 26 2006, 06:04 AM']
During the Mass when we say the Our Father and the priest speaks (before the people say, "for the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory is yours forever and ever"), is it permissable for instruments to play softly? Would this be considered 'some part [that] is proclaimed aloud by the priest or a minister by the virtue of his role'?
[/quote]

I don't believe that it is permissable. I think that I have read somewhere where that is not permissable. I will have to do some research to find it, but I am sure that somewhere along the line I have spoken about it.

[franciscanheart]

Sorry, Cam. I forgot about that tidbit!

Question: If handbells, pianos, tympanies, and other 'noisy' instruments are not allowed, what is? The organ is allowed... and... what else? I know stringed instruments (those that one might find at a symphony) were mentioned. Are those permissable?