Saying The Added Part Of The Our Father

[Bruce S]

You know, the "For thine is kingdom, the power and glory, Forever and Ever, Amen". Do you guys say it during the Our Father at Mass? Do you say it in your personal prayers?

It is a SUGGESTED prayer by Jesus. They were asked HOW TO pray, not give THE prayer without change, the only prayer. It was a format for prayer, one that would include the elements that were pleasing to God.

First praise.

Then submission

Then condemnation for sin

Then supplication

Then forgiveness and love to fellow man

Then a plea for help in overcoming Satan and his ways

Basically a synopsis of the outline for all prayer.

From the NIV version: Luke:

Jesus' Teaching on Prayer

1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."

2He said to them, "When you pray, say:

   " 'Father,[1]

   hallowed be your name,

   your kingdom come.[2]

    3Give us each day our daily bread.

    4Forgive us our sins,

       for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[3]

   And lead us not into temptation.[4] ' "

Adding to this, is most likely wonderful, for without additons, one would have ONLY this approved prayer, one could rattle it off in 25 seconds, and prayer would be ended.

Use the FORM, and put in your own words, in my opinion is the best form of prayer.

Pre written, approved, other person writen prayers have wonderful insights.

But for me, using the words of others, rarely has the same impact as using my own hearfelt pleadings.

In English, OR as the "Language of Angels" and "Moans and groanings"

We almost never use pre-packaged prayers in Pentecostal services.

However, I'm engaged in other events where the "Our Father" is recited a few times a week, they are non-denominational, all add the appendage, and all hold hands while praying it [i HATE the term "reciting" sounds like you are reading something you don't believe with].

And NO...

It is NOT a "Catholic thing" as so many here have tried to spin it...

It is a JESUS thing. Stop trying to make everything Jesus did and say a disctinctive of one denomination. Jesus came for pagans too, and the Jew right?

Agh.

Edited January 11, 2004 by Bruce S

[Anna]

Um, yeah.

That prayer is called the Doxology. It's old, very old, and very CATHOLIC.

If you do a search here using the key word, Doxology, you'll find the origin of the prayer. I'm getting ready for Mass, so don't have time to look it up for ya

Pax Christi. <><

[Bruce S]

That prayer is called the Doxology. It's old, very old, and very CATHOLIC.

Silly me. I thought it was a Jesus prayer.

[Anna]

I'm back. ha ha.

I had to drive my son to serve at the 9:30 am Mass, but I learned from my daughter that I must attend the 11:30 am Mass, for some special function for those receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation this year and their parents.

So, I took a quick minute to look up that old thread.

Here's the link: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...416&hl=doxology

I hope that works for ya's.

Pax Christi. <><

[Bruce S]

Interesting and thanks. Good thread you linked, learned a few things, and I appreciate your pointing me to it.

I posted the EXACT words from the NIV in my first post, so I'm not confused over what is taught and written as the prayer itself.

I just find it worth commenting on... that Pentecostals rarely obsess over these little "jot's and tittle's" type of issues. Honest.

For us, it is more a Big Picture thing.

I honestly have had more fun reading internal squabbles from ALL denominations, including yours, over such matters as the GRIP implementations.

Defining and defending every nuance of worship, prayer, or FORM isn't really something we engage in [now I'm talking with a Pentecostal hat on here, since I'm presently wearing many in my life].

We have the same "information Nazi's" too. Our version of it is the KJV only crowd.

They will defend to the death every THEE AND THOU in it, and if you DARE to point out that they 'may....be' missing out on what is being TAUGHT, and focusing on the details, to the point of exclusion of the message, they start accusing you of being a "Tool of Satan"

Or even....

Dare I say it? A heretic?

Grin.

Edited January 11, 2004 by Bruce S

[jasJis]

It's funny when you are enlightend Bruce, it's others that are being nit-picky. :D

The ARTIST of the Big Picture paints with Broad Strokes and Fine Detail.

Bruce, check out the link to my Octavio Ocampo signature. It's amazing to see in real life. Far away is the face of Christ crucified. Get closer, and you lose it and see Calgary (Calvary). Don't step back, come even closer and see again the face of Christ and know what makes forms His image a little better. -_-

Edited January 11, 2004 by jasJis

[Anna]

Interesting and thanks. Good thread you linked, learned a few things, and I appreciate your pointing me to it.

You're kindly welcome.

I just find it worth commenting on... that Pentecostals rarely obsess over these little "jot's and tittle's" type of issues. Honest.

Hmmm. And I always thought Pentecostals were very "Biblical"

Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

The "Jot" is the Hebrew word "Yodh" which is the 10th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It is also the smallest letter. It's European or English equivalent is the letter "Y" as in the English term Yahweh or in Hebrew YHVH since there were no vowel's used in the ancient script.

The word "jot" itself is an English transliteration of "iota" which is the 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. "Iota," in turn, is the nearest Greek equivalent for the Hebrew yodh.

The "tittle" is the small decorative spur or point on the upper edge of the yodh. If you can imagine a tiny letter with a slightly visible decorative mark.

Tittle is used by Greek grammarians of the accents and diacritical points. It means the little lines or projections by which the Hebrew letters differ from each other. One example would be the difference between the letter L and I. The difference is only one small mark. We use phrases like "the dotting of the i, and the crossing of the t," and "every iota."

For us, it is more a Big Picture thing.

Yes, the big picture often eliminates the fine details. I see...

I honestly have had more fun reading internal squabbles from ALL denominations, including yours, over such matters as the GRIP implementations.

And I honestly have had more fun reading your misquotes, grammatical blunders, and misusage of words....what's the GRIP?

Defining and defending every nuance of worship, prayer, or FORM isn't really something we engage in [now I'm talking with a Pentecostal hat on here, since I'm presently wearing many in my life].

I guess that's just another bad habit we Catholics inherited from our Jewish ancestors.

Dare I say it? A heretic?

Grin.

Why do I feel so uncomfortable when you grin and say "heretic"? Why do I not understand all the grinning you do, while denying certain Truths? I find it kinda, scarey, Bruce S. And I mean that from a spiritual point of few...and I'm just being honest and serious here, not meaning a put down (like, say, in other posts of my own!) :sadder:

Pax Christi. <><

[Ellenita]

Anna, thanks for posting that link. As ever, Likos' wise post in the original discussion about the doxology is so clear. I always feel learn so much from him!

[Aloysius]

it's not part of scripture though. shouldn't you be careful what you believe to be the inspired word of God and what you believe to be something started by men, and Catholic men at that :ph34r: ?

:P

[cmotherofpirl]

:)

THats true Aloysius.

[BLAZEr]

And I honestly have had more fun reading your misquotes, grammatical blunders, and misusage of words....what's the GRIP?

lol, as in get a GRIP? lol, that's one of my favorite phrases . . .

It's GIRM Bruce, as in General Instruction for the Roman Missal . . .

Anna new that . . . and I like her style . . . sneaky . . .

[Lil Red]

Its apart of our Mass after Father says prayer after Our Father. People here for some reason lift there hands up when they say it.

:loco:

yeah, my church does too. I figure if I'm not gonna hold hands during the Our Father, then I shouldn't lift up my hands either. I dunno. :huh:

[Lil Red]

Thanks Anna for the link! I appreciate it!

[PedroX]

Sojourner,

We do say the ending, just slightly differently than the Protestant version. I often forget that Father is going to say his prayers inbetween and find myself saying the first few words of the ending. Boy do I feel sheepish!

Lil Red Devil,

I do say the ending in my personal prayers. Between being a Protestant for so long, and being an addictions counselor (we always closed meetings with the Lord's Prayer) it just comes naturally to me. I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with it, and while praying the rosary, it seems like a nice "amen" part of the prayer. Hope that helps!

peace...

[Katholikos]

For those who really want to know the truth about the Protestant ending of the Lord's Prayer and didn't click on the link Anna provided where the Q was answered:

Catholics say the "Lord's Prayer" (called the "Our Father") as the Lord Himself taught it to His Apostles.

The words "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever" are from a marginal gloss in the manuscript used to translate the King James Version of the Bible. They were inserted into the text of Mt 6:13 in error by a copyist, and Protestants have been saying the Lord's Prayer incorrectly ever since 1611 when the KJV was published. (The KJV omits this gloss in Luke 11:4.)

The phrase is from the Liturgy of the Mass as it was celebrated in Greek in the first century, taken from from 1 Chronicles 29:11 in the Old Testament. You will find the words in the first century Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), added as a doxology (hymn of praise) at different intervals in the Mass, including after the Our Father.

The Novus Ordo (Mass as revised after Vatican II) restored this doxology following the Our Father. First the congregation says the Our Father, then the priest says: "Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy, keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ." The congregation then says: "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours forever, amen."

But these are not Christ's words and should not be attached to the Lord's Prayer.

Many Protestants have accused Catholics of "cutting Christ's words out of the Lord Prayer." That's amusing, considering the truth of the matter.

The RSV does not add these words to Mt 6:13. Newer Protestant translations also omit them.

This is only one of many errors in the KJV.

JMJ Likos