Distributism

[Laudate_Dominum]

Distributism is pretty fly. I have my own thing I've been cooking up, but it's not going to be possible for a while. Theoretically I believe that the trajectory of global society will one day effect a radically new kind of technological and post-industrial situation which will coincide with a distinct cultural paradigm in which my somewhat lofty and speculative economic ideals will make sense. But it would probably sound like nonsense if I tried to summarize my ideas.

[Aloysius]

most phatmassers know of my plan to create a small distributist-minded neighborhood... my website is down at the moment or i'd give you the link... it should be up soon

L_D, what kind of thing are you cooking up? is it gonna fly with me and our mutual friends' (GKC and HB) concepts of simple property ownership?

[goldenchild17]

[quote]For a "National Dividend" to give a basic guaranteed income to all regardless of whether or not they have a job.[/quote]

Welfare anybody?

[Aloysius]

worse than welfare: it's not temporary help to get someone back up their feet-- it's permanent payments to everybody.

even welfare I can accept as not morally reprehensible, so long as it is designed to help someone get back up on their feet (though it is always preferable that private voluntary charity, charitable organizations, and religious orders take on this role rather than the government using forced tax money)

[goldenchild17]

True. But, and I'm speaking really just from experience here, I've known a LOT of people who go onto welfare and just stay there and basically do absolutely nothing and yet recieve enough to get by. Basically it's a free pass. I understand people are poor, but many abuse this system.

[Anomaly]

I find it disheatening that so many people posting here with these 'good and educated ideas' haven't had to earn their own living (food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, etc.). Getting subsidies from loans, parents, or living in a dorm setting doesn't count.

The old adage applies:
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." New theories are great inasmuch they may expand the choice of possibilites, but real life experience weeds out unworkable daydreams with the blunt application of reality.

I'm not going to name names, but the poster who said 'I haven't seen capitalism work' is an ostrich with their head in the sand.

[Aloysius]

I believe in holding to ideals based upon moral principals, and then living in the real world and acting in the real world attempting as much as possible to live up to that ideal.

for example...
distributist ideal: own your own property outright
practical application: attempt to purchase and completely pay off your home within as short a period as is practical

distributist ideal: many private small business owners
practical application: work towards starting your own business, perhaps take business courses in college, get an idea, see how feasible it is and if it can be marketed...

et cetera

it is good to have youthful ideals... and it is never good to grow cynical about them even if you are never able to acheive the ideal. 'cold hard reality' is something to be combatted and changed by an ideal up until your dying breath.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1074591' date='Sep 25 2006, 08:23 AM']
I find it disheatening that so many people posting here with these 'good and educated ideas' haven't had to earn their own living (food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, etc.). Getting subsidies from loans, parents, or living in a dorm setting doesn't count.

The old adage applies:
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." New theories are great inasmuch they may expand the choice of possibilites, but real life experience weeds out unworkable daydreams with the blunt application of reality.

I'm not going to name names, but the poster who said 'I haven't seen capitalism work' is an ostrich with their head in the sand.
[/quote]

So someone who's never been pregnant can never speak out against abortion?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1074734' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:06 PM']
So someone who's never been pregnant can never speak out against abortion?
[/quote]
Someone's who's never been pregnant can't speak about the most comfortable position to lie down unless they put in the effort to speak with pregnant women and discuss the matter. If all you know about the physical aspects of pregnancy is from books, your recommendation to lie on the side or on the back because it puts less pressure on the back and is more comfortable on the intestines is merely unfounded opinion, not a theory to be taken seriously.

[Aloysius]

but moral principals that guide economics and pregnancy are things which all men can discuss from logic, and then when they are settled, attempt to apply them in real life.

I never said anything about what was most comfortable, I said everything about what was most morally correct and should therefore be strived for.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1074743' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:23 PM']
but moral principals that guide economics and pregnancy are things which all men can discuss from logic, and then when they are settled, attempt to apply them in real life.

I never said anything about what was most comfortable, I said everything about what was most morally correct and should therefore be strived for.
[/quote]Logic must include reality, not logic in unworkable or unattainable circumstances.

Let me ask you a question.
What percentage of US workers work for a large corporation (defined as having more than 500 employees) compared to smaller businesses?

[Aloysius]

likely the large majority, but I do not know (there's no reason to ask for a specific statistic, one can't expect the other side to know your specific statistic, you ought to give it if it's towards your point).

this does not mean that it is not possible to start your own business, or to work for a small business. oppurtunities are out there. like I said: it's an ideal to strive for that I describe... I support the larger notion of a society in which this ideal was easier to attain (societies like this have existed in the past), and personally wish to work towards attaining it in the current economic situation.

unless you are going to tell me it is impossible to own a home outright and it's impossible to own a business, then you are not proving any point other than it's useful to work within the current system. and that's fine, if you don't want to strive for an ideal. but I say youthful idealism ought to be clung to, and ought never to grow cynical.

the percentage of people currently working for a large company has no bearing on that. I'm not saying those people are wrong for doing that: I disagree with a society which creates that as the only and/or most feasible path for the majority of people, however.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1074756' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:38 PM']
likely the large majority, but I do not know (there's no reason to ask for a specific statistic, one can't expect the other side to know your specific statistic, you ought to give it if it's towards your point).

this does not mean that it is not possible to start your own business, or to work for a small business. oppurtunities are out there. like I said: it's an ideal to strive for that I describe... I support the larger notion of a society in which this ideal was easier to attain (societies like this have existed in the past), and personally wish to work towards attaining it in the current economic situation.

unless you are going to tell me it is impossible to own a home outright and it's impossible to own a business, then you are not proving any point other than it's useful to work within the current system. and that's fine, if you don't want to strive for an ideal. but I say youthful idealism ought to be clung to, and ought never to grow cynical.

the percentage of people currently working for a large company has no bearing on that. I'm not saying those people are wrong for doing that: I disagree with a society which creates that as the only and/or most feasible path for the majority of people, however.
[/quote]The point is, the current system isn't as warped as you think. In 2003, approx. 56.4 million people worked for small companies compared to 54.9 million for the big companies. That's skewed because many large companies are actual smaller companies that share a corporate umbrella. That fact destroys your assumption that society makes working for a large corporation the only or the most viable means of employment.

It's great to change things, but it's silly to change without knowing what exists now. Youthful idealism isn't some sacred thing only young people have. It's willingness to take risks and ability to be innovative.
-Most people work for smaller companies.
-Being realisitic is not reactionary cynicsm.
-A sound foundation in practical economics is required to develop practical application of idealistic principles.
-A sound understanding of what exists is needed to avoid wasted effort chasing un-needed and superflous change for the sake of 'youthful idealism'.

I'm still disheartened that people in the US can make a claim they've never seen capitolism work, and not be soundly challenged.

Look at Chesterson. He thought he was a socialist when he didn't know what the practical reality of socialism is.

It's silly to be anti-capitolism when you don't really know what the practical reality of capitolism is.

Edited September 25, 2006 by Anomaly

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1074741' date='Sep 25 2006, 02:21 PM']
Someone's who's never been pregnant can't speak about the most comfortable position to lie down unless they put in the effort to speak with pregnant women and discuss the matter. If all you know about the physical aspects of pregnancy is from books, your recommendation to lie on the side or on the back because it puts less pressure on the back and is more comfortable on the intestines is merely unfounded opinion, not a theory to be taken seriously.
[/quote]
I didn't mention anything about discussing the pregnancy. I'm sure this is something only women will have a clue about. But that doesn't take away the fact that abortion is morally wrong no matter what, no matter who is defending it.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1074770' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:56 PM']
I didn't mention anything about discussing the pregnancy. I'm sure this is something only women will have a clue about. But that doesn't take away the fact that abortion is morally wrong no matter what, no matter who is defending it.
[/quote]
And captiolism is as morally wrong as abortion?

Edited September 25, 2006 by Anomaly