Winchester Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Yeah, I gotta go with Budge on that one there. There's plenty of supposed exorcists casting out demons, but only in Jesus's name is it acceptable to us. The fact is, Muslims seem to be trying to worship the God of Abraham. They have a flawed concept. They say some things that are true and some that are not. We can accept the true and recognize what we think is a mistake. They are not atheists. Are they rejecting Christ? We do not know, because that rejection takes place in one's heart. They probably don't know who Christ is. Let's remember that the doctrine of the Trinity horrified Mohammed, who misunderstood, thinking we had begun teaching that there were multiple gods. He misunderstood. The foundation of his religion is a misunderstanding. That which flows out of it--the repugnant parts of it--are an occassion of grace for us. We can see that without Christ, we are set adrift, and though we may have our eyes on the proper star, without a rudder, our boat will drift off course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1072048' date='Sep 22 2006, 08:57 PM'] They [the muslims] adore (the One True God) They [the muslims] take pains to submit (to the decrees of the One True God) the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself (to Abraham) They [the muslims] revere (Jesus as a prophet) They [the muslims] honor (Mary, Jesus' Mother) They [the muslims] await (the day of judgement) They [the muslims] value (the moral life) They [the muslims] worship (God) through prayer, almsgiving and fasting The document was not saying anything about the above parenthetical phrases. It only said things about what the muslims and the faith of islam were doing, and acknowledged where the muslims were directing these things towards (towards our God) [/quote] bump for nostra aeate... which I probably mispell each time I type it out instead of copy/pasting it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Budge, your logic allows only the God in your mind to be the one true God. Let me explain. You say God, according to how Islam describes him, is a false God--on the basis of their beliefs about God not being in perfect alignment with what you believe about God. So, if we logically follow that same line of thought, then the Jewish God is a false God. The Catholic God is a false God. The Lutheran God is a false God. The Methodist God is a false God. The only true God is the one that aligns with all of [b]your[/b] beliefs about Him. Don't you see why this reverse way of thinking doesn't make sense? God is not negotiable or exist based on what we believe about Him. He is there, unmoving, and unchanging, regardless of how we interpret who He is. There is only one true God. Period. To break it down even further, if we bothed believed the exact same things about God, except that I thought he had grey hair, and you thought he had white hair, I suppose I'd be worshipping a false God, huh? That's ridiculous. Oh... and you STILL have not addressed my first point, but continue to carry on as if you did. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote] So, if we logically follow that same line of thought, then the Jewish God is a false God. The Catholic God is a false God. The Lutheran God is a false God. The Methodist God is a false God. The only true God is the one that aligns with all of your beliefs about Him.[/quote] And if we follow your logic, any god will do. Shiva, Krishna, Allah, Zoraster, Baal..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1072187' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:33 PM'] And if we follow your logic, any god will do. Shiva, Krishna, Allah, Zoraster, Baal..... [/quote] Out of curiosity, what happens to your current god if you change your mind again and switch religions again? Was that one ultimately the wrong and a false god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1072198' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:37 PM'] Out of curiosity, what happens to your current god if you change your mind again and switch religions again? Was that one ultimately the wrong and a false god? [/quote] Yeah, it's good Budge worships the One True God of the Southern Baptists, rather than that false demon worshiped by Euty's Evangelical non-denoms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' post='1072228' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:47 PM'] Yeah, it's good Budge worships the One True God of the Southern Baptists, rather than that false demon worshiped by Euty's Evangelical non-denoms! [/quote] Or the god she worshipped before that... or before that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farsight one Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1072062' date='Sep 22 2006, 08:13 PM'] Not in Allah or Muhammed's name!!! Jesus's name. [/quote]What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Are you really implying that because they call Him "Allah" instead of "God" that they believe in a false god? Who cares what we call Him(provided we don't blaspheme). The name by which we refer to God is irrelevent, as long as our concept of Him is not horribly off. I would not say that a polytheist believes in the one true God. That would be ridiculus. Some religions also say that their god can die. I would not say that is belief in the one true God. Yes, Jesus came and died for our sins. That's not quite what I mean. When they believe that their god can die, I mean DIE die. As in no more. No resurrection/whatever. I would not say that someone who believes that their god is evil is worshipping the one true God either, as kind and loving as at the core of what God is. You say that muslims do not believe that Jesus is God and therefore do not believe in the real God. I say that since muslims believe in the real God, they DO believe that Jesus is God, whether they know it or not. Your argument implys separation between Jesus and God when in reality they are one and the same. This mentality and way of talking of yours is what freaked Mohammad in the first place. Edited September 23, 2006 by Farsight one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote]they DO believe that Jesus is God, whether they know it or not.[/quote] Ok that explains everything.... Where do some of you come up with this stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 they don't believe Jesus is God, they believe in allah who neither begets nor is begotten and is above reason (but of course, Jesus is the eternal Logos, the eternal reason) be careful not to go too far and off the deep end in reaction to budge's comments. as Catholics we believe that on the muslims end, on their actions and on their directions, they're directing their worship, prayers, belief towards the One True God (of Abraham, of Iassac, of Jesus).... but on God's end only Christian worship is truly pleasing to Him... and on the muslim's end their understanding of him is their own construction of a false god even if they direct their prayers towards the true God. shiva, krishna, zeus, et al are not proper names for God. a rose by any other name would smell as sweet but a god by any other name is heresy, blasphemy, and paganism. if folks of those religions were to keep their constructions of one of those gods and keep those names for god but were to focus their prayers towards the One True God, the God of Abraham et cetera, then they would be directing their worship towards the one true God but their zeus, their shiva, or their krishna would still be a pagan god. The allah of the muslims is, in this same respect, a pagan god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1072187' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:33 PM'] And if we follow your logic, any god will do. Shiva, Krishna, Allah, Zoraster, Baal..... [/quote] Give me a break. NObody said "any God will do". How do you get my clear statement of "There is one true God" and distort it to "any God will do". Please explain. Basically, it comes down to this. You think that when two people disagree about God, two God's exist. A true God and a false God. The church teaches that when two people disagree about God, one God exists, but one of the people misunderstands Him. No additional God's are created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote]You think that when two people disagree about God, two God's exist. A true God and a false God. The church teaches that when two people disagree about God, one God exists, but one of the people misunderstands Him. No additional God's are created. [/quote] We definitely differ here. I believe the god of false religions is Satan himself as the inventor of them. In fact most false religions are based on Satan's lies in the garden. Here is where we definitely part ways in how we view these things. I do not believe there is a false 'God" I believe that is Satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 I agree (with some qualifications, read my other posts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' post='1071360' date='Sep 22 2006, 12:29 PM'] This whole "contradiction" is based off of this claim: "In Regensburg he said the god of Islam is a god of will, violence, and forced conversions." Devastating to your argument, the pope never said that. Please read the speech here: [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474[/url] After you read it, please come back and point out to me where the pope said what you claim. God bless. [/quote] Thank you dUst. hahaha. The media blew everything out of proportion soo much. Even the parts of his speach that sparked controversy were mere quotations. I havent read all of it yet but out of what I've read (and continuing to read), people took what he said way out of context.... I continued reading the whole thread, everything you've stated is solid gold. peaze Edited September 23, 2006 by musturde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 24, 2006 Author Share Posted September 24, 2006 Well in the world of Vaticanese, the language spoken with endless wiffle-waffle, endless outs, and 20 disclaimers...there tends to be a lot of these "misunderstandings". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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