Did The Pope Contradict Himself?

[Budge]

[quote]Budge, I'd like to know what you think of my post... in which in one breath I find myself not faulting either one pope for beginning dialogue with muslims by claiming we aim towards the same God (notice, in official documents like Nostra Aete and the CCC, the context of allah being the same god <if i'm not mistaken> always uses a verb whose subject is the muslims, not the subject of God or Allah as in 'god is allah' or 'allah is god', but 'the muslims [attempt to] worship the one true God'... it's all from the basis of their actions, not of God's essence[/quote]

Telling Muslims you already know God too is a lie that will lead them to hell.

If I had been told the same thing as a UU, instead of the saving gospel of Jesus Christ, I would be as lost as well.

Are Muslims really people who are seeking god, or mostly folks who believe a false religion that they believe has given them the truth when it is not?

One can ATTEMPT to worship the one true god all they want and STILL GET IT WRONG.

Worshipping a false god, of any kind doesnt get you to heaven.

Heres the facts unless you are worshipping the one true God, have become a born again believer in Christ and have embraced the true gospel not another gospel or false religion, you are going to be sunk.

This Im Ok, You're Ok, we all love 'God' together stuff, is false and leading no one to God.

Allah teaches his followers to kill infidels...

Allah teaches it is ok to beat your wife with a stick the size of a thumb.

Allah teaches that women have far more chance of hell then men.

This may make some of you upset but the Catholic church has definitely marked itself as antichrist, by teaching in Nostra Aetate that Allah [of Islam] equals God.








[quote]Didn't Luther say if you must sin, to sin MIGHTILY?[/quote]

I am not a Lutheran.

I do not claim perfection for the men of the Reformation, some of which held some Roman baggage.

[quote]

Can it be denominationalists are trying to get to the same point but wander off because they're making their own map?[/quote]

Own map?

Allah isnt God, all I have to do is read the Bible for that one.

I already encountered an endless slew of false gods,[demons and false spirits] in the UU church where all false religions are brought together as one...[including Islam]

I dont remember Jesus ever teaching Listen to the Pope.

Why would you defend a false god that denies Jesus Christ and salvation in Him?

Who is your Father?

[Aloysius]

read my post in that thread (I know it's somewhat long, but you just posted a thread that's long too). I said I do not fault the popes who start saying "yes, the God of Abraham (who you aim towards, who you [attempt to] worship) is the One True God, now let's look at who He really is"... but nor do I fault the popes... neigh I even lean more towards their side... who said that the muslims worship satan.

Nostra Aete teaches muslims "adore the one God". this is an action by the muslims, originated by the muslims, solely done by the muslims. how do they "adore the one God"? they identify the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus, they identify the God of the Jews and Christians when they direct their worship towards a god.

if this document had said "Allah is God" I would stand right there with you and either go very rad trad, sedevacantist, or some form of very traditional protestant if they could answer some other problems I had

but as it stands, it does not. it says muslims adore the one God, and I can accept that. they identify Him and point their worship and prayers towards Him. I might think it's not as forcefully opposed to islam as it ought to be; as some of the great popes of the past had been; but I cannot find fault with it.

[Budge]

[quote]I said I do not fault the popes who start saying "yes, the God of Abraham (who you aim towards, who you [attempt to] worship) is the One True God, now let's look at who He really is"... but nor do I fault the popes... neigh I even lean more towards their side... who said that the muslims worship satan.[/quote]


Why not get off the fence, and stop making excuses for Popes who seriously are confused.

This is the problem when men put their own authority above God's Word.

The Popes today, definitely have rejected all those warnings in the Bible about "false gods"

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1071922' date='Sep 22 2006, 06:11 PM']
Who is your Father?[/quote]His name was Stan.

Who's your Mom?

I don't recall Jesus telling his Apostles or followers not to listen to each other, do you?

I don't recall Jesus telling his Apostles or followers that they only have to read about God in a book, do you?

I don't recall Jesus telling any of his followers that they must belong to a certain group or you are against God, do you?

If you have, please provide the relevant scripture passage.

[Budge]

[quote]
Nostra Aete teaches muslims "adore the one God". this is an action by the muslims, originated by the muslims, solely done by the muslims. how do they "adore the one God"? they identify the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus, they identify the God of the Jews and Christians when they direct their worship towards a god.[/quote]

That IS SAYING Allah is God.

Muslims adore the one God...

When Nostra Aetate says this, it DEFINITELY is saying Allah is God..
[quote]
who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even [u]His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.[/u] Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when [u]God[/u] will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. [u]Finally, they value the moral life and worship God[/u] especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.[/quote]

Right there where it says they WORSHIP GOD...it is saying Allah is God.

How direct of a statement do you need?

[quote]

but as it stands, it does not. it says muslims adore the one God, and I can accept that. they identify Him and point their worship and prayers towards Him.[/quote]

The one true God is the God of the Bible...if you believe that Islamics are worshipping the ONE TRUE GOD OF the Bible, you believe then that that Allah is the same God, even if 'they got a few things wrong.'




[quote]
I don't recall Jesus telling his Apostles or followers that they only have to read about God in a book, do you?[/quote]

When one rejects God's Word as a guide, they have basically are a stumbling around in the dark, so wonder they think the demons of false religions represent God...

[Aloysius]

again, "they adore God" is not the same as "allah is God"... if one directs their worship towards the one true God, then one worships the one true God. but allah as described by the koran and all islamic theology and understanding is not that God.

I know it screams to your scratch-the-surface fundamentalism of confusion and evil... but subtleties can be good and important.

their fundamental and total substantial understand of allah speaks to me of them understand a pagan god. but they direct worship towards Our God... and as such I cannot find fault in the statement that they "worship the One God"

please... a little bit of depth will go a long way towards identifying where the real enemies, falsehoods, and mistruths are.

[Budge]

[quote]
their fundamental and total substantial understand of allah speaks to me of them understand a pagan god. but they direct worship towards Our God... and as such I cannot find fault in the statement that they "worship the One God"[/quote]

So basically you believe they are worshipping God, just that they 'misunderstand' Him.

This to be honest is what I was taught while UU, course while there was no one true church or religion, all UU ministers taught that false religions all had archetypes of God. That it was impossible for man to truly to KNOW God, but that all religions had a piece of the puzzle so to speak.

I definitely no longer believe that way and that is where we definitely part ways.

My belief is that they are worshipping a false god, and in bondage to a false religion and a false spirit.

In fact this demonic spirit is the reason for the evils associated with Islam. I see the people as victims, even reading the memroir of a lady who grew up in Saudia Arabia was absolutely heart-breaking.

Bad rotten fruit all around.

[Aloysius]

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. [b]They[/b] [u]adore[/u] [i]the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;[/i] [b]they[/b] [u]take pains to submit[/u] [i]wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom [/i][b]the faith of Islam[/b] [u]takes pleasure in linking[/u] [i]itself, submitted to God. [/i]Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, [b]they[/b] [u]revere [/u][i]Him as a prophet. [/i][b]They[/b] also [u]honor[/u] [i]Mary, His virgin Mother; at times[/i] [b]they[/b] even [u]call [/u][i]on her with devotion.[/i] In addition, [b]they[/b] [u]await[/u] [i] the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead.[/i] Finally, [b]they[/b] [u]value[/u] [i]the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.[/i]


NOTE:
[b]BOLDED STATEMENTS[/b] Subjects of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[u]UNDERLINED STATEMENTS[/u] verbs of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[i]ITALICIZED STATEMENTS[/i] objects of the verbs (and other parts of speech I didn't discriminate against)... things which Nostra Aeatae is not specifically describing: IT IS DESCRIBING WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THOSE THINGS> simple linguistic skills will show you this.

[Anomaly]

[size=7][b]BUDGE[/b][/size]

[font="Comic Sans Ms"]I don't recall [b]Jesus telling his Apostles [/font] [/b] or followers [size=5]not to listen to each other[/size], do you?

I don't recall [color="#CC6600"]Jesus telling his Apostles [/color] or followers that [size=6][font="Palatino Linotype"]they only have to read [/font] about God in a book[/size], do you?

I [font="Book Antiqua"]don't [u]recall Jesus telling any of his followers [/font] that they must belong[/u] to a [b]certain group [/b] or you are against God, do you?

[u]If you have, [i][size=6]please[/size][/i] provide [/u] the [size=6]relevant [u]scripture [/size] [b]pass[/u]age.[/b]

[Budge]

[quote]I don't recall Jesus telling any of his followers that they must belong to a certain group or you are against God, do you?[/quote]

Actually yes, HE DID tell them they must belong to a CERTAIN GROUP...
[size=5]
Mat 12:30 [u]He that is not with me is against me[/u]; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.[/size]

This would include Muslims, UUs, and any other false religion that rejects Jesus Christ and is "not with him"

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1072006' date='Sep 22 2006, 08:40 PM']
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. [b]They[/b] [u]adore[/u] [i]the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;[/i] [b]they[/b] [u]take pains to submit[/u] [i]wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom [/i][b]the faith of Islam[/b] [u]takes pleasure in linking[/u] [i]itself, submitted to God. [/i]Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, [b]they[/b] [u]revere [/u][i]Him as a prophet. [/i][b]They[/b] also [u]honor[/u] [i]Mary, His virgin Mother; at times[/i] [b]they[/b] even [u]call [/u][i]on her with devotion.[/i] In addition, [b]they[/b] [u]await[/u] [i] the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead.[/i] Finally, [b]they[/b] [u]value[/u] [i]the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.[/i]
NOTE:
[b]BOLDED STATEMENTS[/b] Subjects of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[u]UNDERLINED STATEMENTS[/u] verbs of sentences, things that Nostra Aaetae is directly describing
[i]ITALICIZED STATEMENTS[/i] objects of the verbs (and other parts of speech I didn't discriminate against)... things which Nostra Aeatae is not specifically describing: IT IS DESCRIBING WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THOSE THINGS> simple linguistic skills will show you this.
[/quote]
They [the muslims] adore (the One True God)
They [the muslims] take pains to submit (to the decrees of the One True God)
the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself (to Abraham)
They [the muslims] revere (Jesus as a prophet)
They [the muslims] honor (Mary, Jesus' Mother)
They [the muslims] await (the day of judgement)
They [the muslims] value (the moral life)
They [the muslims] worship (God) through prayer, almsgiving and fasting

The document was not saying anything about the above parenthetical phrases. It only said things about what the muslims and the faith of islam were doing, and acknowledged where the muslims were directing these things towards (towards our God)

[Winchester]

Jesus also said "He that is not against us is with us."

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072032' date='Sep 22 2006, 06:50 PM']
Actually yes, HE DID tell them they must belong to a CERTAIN GROUP...
[size=5]
Mat 12:30 [u]He that is not with me is against me[/u]; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.[/size]

This would include Muslims, UUs, and any other false religion that rejects Jesus Christ and is "not with him"
[/quote]
Super!
[size=4]And in Matthew, Jesus pointed [/size] says [size=3]that casting [i]out demons[/size] is a[font="Century Gothic"] sign [/i] of God's power[/font].

But in [u]Luke, the Apostles question [/u] Jesus about others who were casting out demon's in Jesus' [u]name, but they weren't [/u] [size=5]a member of their group. They had your attitude and [size=2]asked Jesus if [i]they [/size] should [/i] make [/size] them stop.

[u]Whats[font="Book Antiqua"] up with [/u] that [/font] [size=5]conundrum?[/size]

[Budge]

Jesus was NOT referring to Muslim exorcists...

[b]You forgot a core part of Mark 9[/b]
[quote]
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils[b] in thy name[/b], and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us[/quote]

Not in Allah or Muhammed's name!!!

Jesus's name.

You all really love that universalism dont you, will defend it to no end!

This verse means all true Christians are united in Christ.

Not in Allah..

Sheesh where do you folks come up with some of this stuff? Edited September 23, 2006 by Budge

[Anomaly]

What about Catholics?

I'm not a 'universalist' either...

Edited September 23, 2006 by Anomaly