A Contradiction In The Mass

[Cam42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073747' date='Sep 24 2006, 12:22 PM']
[quote]The error in Bible Study is that if the exegesis is incorrect, because of lack of knowledge, then it converts no one, but misleads him/her. Ironically, I am a Bible believeing Christian as well. If you'd take the time to read my posts, you'd see that I either directly quote Sacred Scripture or refer to it very often. [u]However, the Sacred Scriptures are only part of the deposit of faith not the sum.[/u][/quote]

The underlined part is where we disagree.

Gods Word is my guide, you have all these other competing guides so oftentimes dispute what God's Word DIRECTLY says.
[/quote]
[i]emphasis is yours; reality is mine[/i]

Would you care to show me where the Bible says that the Bible is the sum of all theological knowledge?

And who gave us the Bible? By the way, there is a difference between promulgation and inspiration.....please don't confuse the two; because we agree about one and most likely disagree about the other.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073728' date='Sep 24 2006, 01:06 PM']
ASK ONE question, less then 2 sentences, and Ill answer it here:
[/quote]

[color="#33CC00"]Whoa, whoa, whoa...time out....

Let's get something straight here. YOU are a GUEST here. You DO NOT boss us around in our own house.

It's high time you start behaving like a proper guest.[/color]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073728' date='Sep 24 2006, 01:06 PM']
I do not have time or space here to answer every question in endless cut and paste.
[/quote]

[color="#33CC00"]Funny, that never stopped you before......[/color]

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/Norseman82/80e025f2.jpg[/img]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1072695' date='Sep 23 2006, 12:43 PM']
OK Budge,

If you are going to be camping out on that verse and taking it super-literally, then how do you reconcile it with Colossians 1:24, the verse about how Paul makes up in his own flesh "that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ"?

How can Christ's sufferings and death be both sufficient and lacking within the same Bible? If we go with your interpretation, the the Bible contradicts itself.

EVERYONE: please let Budge answer this.
[/quote]

[color="#33CC00"]for Budge[/color]

[Budge]

Why do you believe that verse means what Christ did on the cross was insufficient?

Dont you remember that Christians are used for God? That all good comes from God?

I belive Catholics are really stretching this verse to claim it defends their co-redeemer teachings.



[quote]
Whoa, whoa, whoa...time out....

Let's get something straight here. YOU are a GUEST here. You DO NOT boss us around in our own house.

It's high time you start behaving like a proper guest.[/quote]


This isnt a house, its a message board.

:

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073979' date='Sep 24 2006, 05:51 PM']
Why do you believe that verse means what Christ did on the cross was insufficient?
[/quote]

[color="#33CC00"]The use of the word "lacking". If you want to take the bible superliterally, it can be either sufficient or lacking, not both.[/color]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073979' date='Sep 24 2006, 05:51 PM']
This isnt a house, its a message board.
[/quote]

[color="#33CC00"]You know perfectly well what we mean.[/color]

Edited September 25, 2006 by Norseman82

[Cam42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1073979' date='Sep 24 2006, 04:51 PM']
Why do you believe that verse means what Christ did on the cross was insufficient?

Dont you remember that Christians are used for God? That all good comes from God?

I belive Catholics are really stretching this verse to claim it defends their co-redeemer teachings.
[/quote]

No one believes that verse calls for an insufficent action. However, I would be very interested to see you ACTUALLY respond to my posts. Or can you not? If you cannot, I won't take it as anything other than recognizing that you have something to learn.

God Bless.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1073808' date='Sep 24 2006, 02:27 PM']
Would you care to show me where the Bible says that the Bible is the sum of all theological knowledge?

And who gave us the Bible? By the way, there is a difference between promulgation and inspiration.....please don't confuse the two; because we agree about one and most likely disagree about the other.
[/quote]
I noticed Budge has avoided these questions. In lieu of answer, I'll play the role of [s]Budge[/s] devil's advocate. I'll answer in Budge-style. Gratuitous text formatting at no extra cost.

[quote]The term "sola Scriptura" or "the Bible alone" is a short phrase that represents the simple truth that there is only one special revelation from God that man possesses today, the written Scriptures or the Bible. Scripture states this concept repeatedly and emphatically. The very phrase "It is written" means exclusively transcribed, and not hearsay. The command to believe what is written means to believe only the pure word of God. What is at stake before the All Holy God is His incorruptible truth.

In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word.

[b] "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: [i]If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book[/i]: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book"
-Revelation 22:18-19[/b]

[u][b]His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself. (Psalm 119:160)[/b][/u]

The Biblical message breathed out by God is revelation in written form. (2 Timothy 3:15-16). The Biblical claim is that what God has inspired was His written word (2 Peter 1:20-21). When the Lord Jesus Christ said, "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), He was speaking of God's written word. The events, actions, commandments, and truths from God are given to us in propositional form, i.e. logical, written sentences. [u][b]God's declaration in Scripture is that it and it alone, is this final authority in all matters of faith and morals.[/b][/u]

Thus there is only one written source from God, and there is only one basis of truth for the Lord's people in the Church.

Affirmed by Jesus Christ

The Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, identified truth with the written Word. In His great high priestly prayer, He said, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." This was consistent with the declarations right through the Old Testament in which the Holy Spirit continually proclaims that the revelation from God is truth, as for example Psalm 119:142, "thy law is truth." [i]There is no source other than Scripture alone to which such a statement applies. That source alone, the Holy Scripture, is the believer's standard of truth.[/i]

[b]In the New Testament, it is the written word of God and that alone to which the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles refer as the final authority.[/b] In the temptation, the Lord Jesus three times resisted Satan, saying, "It is written" as for example, in Matthew 4:4, "he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." In stating "It is written," the Lord used the exact same phrase that is used in the Holy Bible forty six times. [u][i]The persistence of the repeated phrase underlines its importance.[/i] [/u] [b](kamiller42's note: I wonder if this same principle applies for the author when Jesus says he is the bread of life and the necessity to consume His flesh.)[/b] The Lord's total acceptance of the authority of the Old Testament is evident in His words found in Matthew 5:17-18:

[i][u][b]"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." [/b][/u][/i]

[b]Other sources of authority condemned[/b]

[i][u]People often attempt to give human traditions higher authority than God's Word.[/u] [/i] [u](kamiller42's note: Glad that's not Catholics.)[/u] This was true of the Jews of Jesus' day. In refuting the errors of the Sadducees, the Scripture records the Lord saying, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29). Christ Jesus continually castigated and rebuked the Pharisees because they made their traditions on a par with the Word of God--corrupting the very basis of truth by equating their traditions with God's Word. So He declared to them in [u][b]Mark 7:13 "You are making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such things do ye."[/b][/u] [size=4]Since Scripture alone is inspired, it alone is the ultimate authority and it alone is the final judge of Tradition[/size].

The Word of the Lord says as a commandment in Proverbs 30:5-6:

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."

God commands that we are not to add to His Word: this command shows emphatically that it is God's Word alone that is pure and uncontaminated.

Aligned with Proverbs, the Lord's strong, clear declaration in Isaiah 8:20 is: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The truth is this: since God's written word alone is inspired, it and it alone is the sole rule of faith. It cannot be otherwise.

[ clipped ]

[u]Is Scripture alone adequate, or do we need more?[/u]

The total sufficiency of Scripture is declared by the Apostle Paul,

[u][size=3] "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
-2 Timothy 3:16-17[/size][/u]

For final truth and authority, all that we need is the Scripture.

What about the claim that sola Scriptura is not possible?

[u]In an attempt to justify traditions as being of equal or higher authority than Scripture, an appeal is often made to the very last verse in John's gospel,[/u]

[b]"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
-John 21:25[/b]

Of course, there were many deeds and sayings of the Lord not recorded in Scripture. Nonetheless, Scripture is the authoritative record that Holy God has given His people. We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile. The idea that somehow sayings and events from the Lord have been recorded in tradition is simply not true.

[u]Another attempt to justify tradition, is the statement that the early church did not have the New Testament.[/u] The Apostle Peter speaks about the writings of the Apostle Paul when he states,

[i][b]"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
-2 Peter 3:15-16[/b][/i]

Peter also declares that he was writing so that the believers could remember what he said. So he wrote, "Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth" (2 Peter 1:12).

From the earliest days of Christianity, a substantial part of the New Testament was available. Under the inspiration of the Lord, the Apostle Paul commands his letters to be read in other churches besides those to which they were sent. This clearly shows that the written word of God was being circulated even as the Apostles lived. The Lord's command to believe what is written has always been something that the believers could obey and did obey. In this matter we must have the humility commanded in the Scripture not to think above what is written. "...that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another" (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Truth, God's Word, and our love for Him

The Lord brings the topic of truth to bear on our love for Him. This again underscores its importance. "Jesus answered and said to him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings; and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent Me" (John 14:23-24). And then again "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35).

The Lord himself looked to the authority of the Scriptures alone, as did His apostles after Him. They confirmed the very message of the Old Testament. "The law of the LORD is perfect" (Psalm 19:7). The believer is to be true to the way of the Lord, holding alone to what is written: "Thy Word is truth."
[size=7][url="http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-bible.html"]Read this Bible illterates.[/url][/size]
[/quote]

Updated to include oversized font. Thanks homeschoolmom.

Edited September 26, 2006 by kamiller42

[homeschoolmom]

You failed to use a large font.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, you have [b]still[/b] failed to answer my argument or even to acknowledge it.

[Lil Red]

[u][b]TO BUDGE:[/b][/u]

dUSt (the webmaster and the guy who pays for your ability to post foolishness) has asked you not to use huge font sizes. please respect his request.

use the [b]bold feature[/b], the[u] underline feature[/u], the [i]italics feature[/i] or the [color="#FF0000"]colors feature. [/color] or[b][i] [u][color="red"]heck, all four![/b][/u][/color][/i]

[Cam42]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1075872' date='Sep 26 2006, 04:18 PM']
Budge, you have [b]still[/b] failed to answer my argument or even to acknowledge it.
[/quote]


Yeah.....me too.

[Cam42]

El Bump-arino

[Cam42]

bump

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Bump. Still waiting.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1074597' date='Sep 25 2006, 08:47 AM']
No one believes that verse calls for an insufficent action.
[/quote]

[color="#33CC00"]Actually, Andy, if Budge is [i]really[/i] logical and consistent about taking the Bible superliterally, she will take that verse just as superliterally as the other(s) in Hebrews 10 that she uses to accuse us of being unscriptural.

Budge,

A bunch of us are awaiting your response to our latest assertions. Or should we check for [i]yet another[/i] new thread?[/color]

Edited October 1, 2006 by Norseman82