A Contradiction In The Mass

[Winchester]

"Do this in memory of me."

You miss the "do this" part?"

The this is that whole "This is my body, this is my blood," thing.

If you tell people to do something, do you really mean to do what you're doing, or do you mean something else?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072075' date='Sep 22 2006, 09:21 PM']
He didnt say RE-PRESENT ME and DO MY SACRIFICE ON YOUR ALTARS.

It is DONE, FINISHED.
[size=4]
Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,[b] It is finished:[/b] and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
[/size]
[/quote]
yes...your scripture quote, taken out of context, seems to directly contradict the scripture wherein Jesus commands us to "do this". I'm convinced. Sign me up, Budge.

caritas
caritas


I'm leaving this...
Lay your hands on me
Lay your hands on me
Lay your hands on me
Lay your hands on me

Lay your hands on me

I'm a fighter, I'm a poet
I'm a preacher
I've been to school and
Baby, I've been the teacher
If you show me how to get
Up off the ground
I can show you
How to fly and never
Ever come back down

-Jonathan Bongiovie

caritas

Edited September 23, 2006 by toledo_jesus

[brandelynmarie]

Budge!....with the Mass we are truly present at Calvary...at the one True & Living Sacrifice of Jesus...At every Mass...at any Mass...We are there...Yes, it's different bread & wine each time prior to each Consecration...But with transubstantiation it is Jesus Body, Blood,Soul & Divinty...The One & only!

Did I tell anyone that I'm not so hot at apologetics? :

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Budge' post='1071339' date='Sep 22 2006, 11:59 AM']
Can we try and stay on topic please?


[/quote]

Sure, but the question is Can you stay on topic? Meaning without posting 7 other threads complaining about catholic teaching?

[Akalyte]

Budge, think of the Sacrifice mass as "proclaiming the death of the lord until he returns".

1 Corinthians 11:26

Think of this: Mass goes on everyday, everywhere in the world, every hour. Constantly proclaiming the Death of the Lord.

1. Where does the Bible say that the Mass is a sacrifice?

Of all of the Catholic doctrines that are denigrated by Fundamentalists as unbiblical, the sacrifice of the Mass has perhaps the most scriptural evidence that Fundamentalists and Catholics are unaware of.

During the Last Supper, the Lord said to his disciples, "Do this in memory of me." In Greek, this statement reads, "Touto poieite eis tan eman anamnesin." There are two aspects of this phrase that deserve consideration. For one, the phrase touto poieite can be translated as do this or as offer this. In the Old Testament, God commands the Israelites "you shall offer (poieseis) upon the altar two lambs" (Ex. 29:38). This use of poiein is translated as offer this or sacrifice this over seventy times in the Old Testament. So the same word that is used for the sacrifice under the Old Covenant is used for the sacrifice of the Mass in the New.

The second key aspect of this phrase is Our Lord’s use of the word anamnesin. If you were to ask a Protestant to look in a Greek Translation of his Bible, every time this word (anamnesis) appears it is within a sacrificial context (see, for example, Numbers 10:10). It also can be translated as memorial offering or memorial sacrifice. While these nuances are lost in the English translation, Jewish ears would have understood the sacrificial meaning of Christ’s words.

Another New Testament passage that testifies to the sacrificial nature of the Mass is 1 Corinthians 10:14–21. Here Paul argues that participation in the Lord’s table means refusing to participate in the sacrifices of demons. Paul contrasts two groups: The first are those who participate in one altar (the table of demons), eating the sacrifice and drinking from the cup of demons. The second are those who partake of the table of the Lord (which, according to Malachi 1:7 is synonymous with an altar of sacrifice) and drink from the cup of the Lord. Paul’s argument is based upon the parallelism between the demonic sacrifice and the Christian sacrifice. Hebrews 13:10 follows this thought, saying that we have an altar from which those who serve the tent (Jewish priests serving in the temple) have no right to eat.

2. If the Mass is a sacrifice, then doesn’t that imply that Christ needs to die again?

It’s a common mistake to equate sacrifice with death. To understand the sacrifice of the Mass, it is essential that one understand the biblical picture of a sacrifice: It is always a gift; it is not always a killing. This is why Scripture can speak of a sacrifice of praise (Hos. 4:12) and the sacrifice of thanksgiving (Ps. 50:14).

Besides offering lambs, the Israelites also made grain offerings, drink offerings, et cetera. One sacrifice was called the wave offering, and this was an unbloody sacrifice where the Jews would wave a gift before God to symbolically give it to him. In Numbers 8:9–15, the whole Hebrew tribe of Levi was presented to God as a wave offering. In a similar way, the Mass is an offering—a sacrifice—where Christ is presented before the Father.

3. Even if you don’t believe Christ dies during the Mass, the Bible still says that he was offered once for all (Heb 9:24–28). Doesn’t re-sacrificing him at Mass mean Calvary wasn’t enough?

Christ’s bloody sacrifice on Calvary took place once, and it will never be repeated. To repeat his sacrifice would be to imply that the original offering was defective or insufficient, like the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament that could never take away sins. Jesus’ offering was perfect, efficacious, and eternal.

Protestants have no qualms accepting the perfect and efficacious nature of Christ’s sacrifice, but invite them to consider its eternal aspect. Jesus is eternally a priest, and a priest’s very nature is to offer sacrifice. In the case of Christ, the eternal sacrifice that he offers is himself. This is why he appears in the book of Revelation as a lamb, standing as though he had been slain (Rev. 5:6). He appears in heaven in the state of a victim not because he still needs to suffer but because for all eternity he re-presents himself to God appealing to the work of the cross, interceding for us (Rom 8:34), and bringing the graces of Calvary to us.

The Mass is a participation in this one heavenly offering. The risen Christ becomes present on the altar and offers himself to God as a living sacrifice. Like the Mass, Christ words at the Last Supper are words of sacrifice, "This is my body . . . this is my blood . . . given up for you." So, the Mass is not repeating the murder of Jesus, but is taking part in what never ends: the offering of Christ to the Father for our sake (Heb 7:25, 9:24). After all, if Calvary didn’t get the job done, then the Mass won’t help. It is precisely because the death of Christ was sufficient that the Mass is celebrated. It does not add to or take away from the work of Christ—it is the work of Christ.

4. When did Christians begin to say that the Lord’s supper was a sacrifice?

Before looking at the ancient beliefs of Christians, consider the modern belief. This may come as a shock to Evangelicals, but seventy-five percent of Christians believe the Mass to be a sacrifice. When you add up the Catholics, Orthodox, Abysinnians, Coptics, Assyrians, Armenians, et cetera, it is evident that Protestants are in the minority with their interpretation. Still, it’s fallacious to argue that because a majority of people believes something it must be true, so let’s examine the faith of the first Christians.

The Didache refers to the Eucharist as a thusia, the Greek term for sacrifice: "Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Note the reference to the first chapter of Malachi. This was a prophecy that spoke of worshipers offering incense and a sacrifice on the Lord’s table everywhere to replace those in Jerusalem. Church Fathers emphasized this point, knowing that the Eucharist was the fulfillment of it. Even the Protestant early-Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes that in the early Church "the Eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian sacrifice. . . . Malachi’s prediction (1:10, 11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have ‘a pure offering’ made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist" (source).

A decade after the Didache was written, Clement of Rome wrote, "Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).

At the turn of the second century, a bishop and disciple of John the Evangelist wrote, "Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr added these thoughts with regard to the prophecy of Malachi: "God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).

Although there are numerous Church Fathers who can be referenced, Irenaeus of Lyons deserves special consideration. In 189, he wrote, "He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand. . . .He makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Adv. Heresies [A.D. 189])

[Budge]

[quote]Budge, think of the Sacrifice mass as "proclaiming the death of the lord until he returns". [/quote]

"proclaiming the DEATh of the lord...?"

{oops big slip there, but actually you are correct that is what the Catholic Mass does with crucifixes of Jesus Christ still hanging on the cross above their altars.

Thats the problem...[u]it focuses on death[/u], keeps Jesus on the cross forever which is exactly what Satan wants.
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2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour [font="Arial Black"]Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light[/font] through the gospel:
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Edited September 23, 2006 by Budge

[Socrates]

And through Christ's Sacrifice, we all can share in Eternal Life.

So I suppose according to Budge, Christ's death on the cross was all a big mistake, and has no merit?



You'd think after all that time away, Budge would be able to at least come up with something more challenging than this drivel.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072174' date='Sep 22 2006, 11:28 PM']
"proclaiming the DEATh of the lord...?"

{oops big slip there, but actually you are correct that is what the Catholic Mass does with crucifixes of Jesus Christ still hanging on the cross above their altars.

Thats the problem...[u]it focuses on death[/u], keeps Jesus on the cross forever which is exactly what Satan wants.
[size=4]
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour [font="Arial Black"]Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light[/font] through the gospel:
[/size]
[/quote]
Paul talked about preaching Christ crucified remember.

How would you know exactly what satan wants, are you an expert on that as well???

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072174' date='Sep 22 2006, 10:28 PM']
"proclaiming the DEATh of the lord...?"

{oops big slip there, but actually you are correct that is what the Catholic Mass does with crucifixes of Jesus Christ still hanging on the cross above their altars.

Thats the problem...[u]it focuses on death[/u], keeps Jesus on the cross forever which is exactly what Satan wants.
[size=4]
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour [font="Arial Black"]Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light[/font] through the gospel:
[/size]
[/quote]

Actually satan wanted him off the cross...Christ called Peter satan because he tried to prevent himself from giving his life for humanity...Are you sure you like the bible?

[Winchester]

I've said my piece, and it hasn't been responded to with any intelligence. I'm done until it is.

[Budge]

Jesus is alive and had victory over sin and death.

the fact that Catholics dwell only on the death part ignoring the resurrection speaks for itself.

[img]http://www.saint-peter.org/Church%20Images/CROSS.jpg[/img]

Why is Jesus always DEAD on 90% of Catholic crucifixes...

head hanging down...
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Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.[/size]

[homeschoolmom]

Christ has died, Christ is risen, Chist will come again.

Alleluia!!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1072603' date='Sep 23 2006, 11:36 AM']
Jesus is alive and had victory over sin and death.

the fact that Catholics dwell only on the death part ignoring the resurrection speaks for itself.

[img]http://www.saint-peter.org/Church%20Images/CROSS.jpg[/img]

Why is Jesus always DEAD on 90% of Catholic crucifixes...

head hanging down...
[size=4]
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.[/size]
[/quote]
1 Corinthians 2:2

You still haven't answered Adam or me. I politely request either that you answer us or else end this debate. You cannot pretend to win a debate by avoiding the hard points for you to beat. You call yourself a Christian, and I'll take your word for it, so be honest.

Otherwise, I humbly ask the moderators to close this thread, since it is not a debate, but only a soapbox, and therefore doesn't belong in the Debate Table.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1072323' date='Sep 23 2006, 12:10 AM']
Actually satan wanted him off the cross...Christ called Peter satan because he tried to prevent him from giving his life for humanity...Are you sure you like the bible?
[/quote]


[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1072606' date='Sep 23 2006, 10:43 AM']
Christ has died, Christ is risen, Chist will come again.

Alleluia!!
[/quote]

Alleluia indeed!

[Cam42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1071298' date='Sep 22 2006, 10:33 AM']
Catholics here have said that the Mass is a representation of the one time sacrifice on the cross....

however...

If its NOT a NEW SACRIFICE why does priest, ask if the sacrice is acceptable to God?

[quote]Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father."[/quote]
Does this not tell you that the sacrifice of the mass/eucharist is more than just a re-presentation? The sacrifice of Christ is already acceptable to God the Father! Rome's prayer in the liturgy for their sacrifice to be acceptable only proves that they don't believe Christ's finished and perfect sacrifice at Calvary was wholly and completely acceptable to God the Father. If it does not, then why pray for it to be acceptable?
[/quote]

Pssttt....Budge.

You are misunderstanding something. While Christ died once in the bloody sacrifice of Calvary and that could only happen once; the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary takes place every day save one each year. Insofar as that is the case the gifts must be deemed acceptable to become the Body and Blood; Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

You go on to say that we/you cant have other offerings {yourself, bread, wine etc} in ADDITION to Christ's sacrifice. I would ask you this.....Why did Christ offer himself AND why did Christ insititute the Mass? The command is actually stated a little later in the Mass when the priest is consecrating the gifts which are deemed acceptable. This is called Transubstantiation. This is a mystery, even if you don't like it, it most certainly is.....I would point you to Luke 22:19-20; it says:

[quote name='Douay-Rheims']And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.[/quote]

Why do we do this? Because Christ commanded it. We are to do it for a commemoration of Christ. It is clear.

Your question that isnt this blasphemous to Christ, because how could anyone even conceive of the idea that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was unacceptable to God?

We didn't conceive of this idea. What you are talking about is a Sacrament. A Sacrament is not a man-made creation, but rather it is a outward sign instituted by Christ to bring about grace. Nothing more. Your mistake and the answer to your question is the assumption that this is created by man. It is not. The proof is presented above in the Lukan quote.

I love the fact that you are quoting Hebrews 10:12, because it goes directly to what I am saying. There is only one bloody Sacrifice, however this whole passage is talking about only the bloody Sacrifice. It is not dealing with the unbloody Sacrifice. Christ did in fact die for our sins, however, the unbloody Sacrifice has been explained and is not addressed in Hebrews.

You ask several times where it is scripturally proven the Mass is a representation? I just showed you. However it is part of the Last Supper discourse in all of the Gospels. Christ calls for a commemoration or a representation of him in three of the Gospels.

It is interesting that you miss the point of Hebrews 9 as well. While it does simply speak of the bloody Sacrifice, no one will argue what the intention of that passage means, however, when speaking of the unbloody Sacrifice, Christ teaches us IN THE GOSPELS what has been shown above in Luke (as well as the others).

What you are missing and what you don't understand about the portions of Hebrews is that this particular part of Scripture is dealing with one particular aspect of Salvation history. It is not dealing with the unbloody Sacrifice but rather it is describing the completion of the Old Covenant and the institution of the New Covenant which is repeated in an unbloody manner at the command of Christ.

While this may seem to be unconsequential to you, this isn't really about you. Your subjective view doesn't change what objectively happens at each and every unbloody Sacrifice.

Here is what the Church teaches:

[quote name='CCC 1341'] The command of Jesus to repeat his actions and words "until he comes" does not only ask us to remember Jesus and what he did. It is directed at the liturgical celebration, by the apostles and their successors, of the memorial of Christ, of his life, of his death, of his Resurrection, and of his intercession in the presence of the Father.[/quote]
[i]Cf. 2 Cor 11:26[/i]

[quote name='CCC 1342']From the beginning the Church has been faithful to the Lord's command. Of the Church of Jerusalem it is written:

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. . . . Day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts.[/quote]
[i]Acts 2:42,46[/i]

You wanted Scriptural backup....The Gospel and the preceding suffice as proof.