Groo the Wanderer Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1071348' date='Sep 22 2006, 12:08 PM'] If the Mass is a representation of Christs one time SUFFICIENT sacrifice on the cross, [u]why does the priest ask if it is acceptable[/u]? Isnt this blasphemous to Christ, because how could anyone even conceive of the idea that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was unacceptable to God? [/quote] On yer questions... 1. He does not ask IF it is acceptable. Please do not misquote the words used as it really blows thw point you are trying to make. He is imploring God to find our sacrifice (our prayers, our time, our presence, our sufferings, our faith) acceptable so that it may be joined to the one supreme sacrifice made by Christ Jesus on the cross. **Read Paul again about how his suffering completes that of Christ....** <---paraphrasing it since you reject the wording in the NAB anyway... 2. Blasphemous? Nope. I do not see that spelled out in the Bible anywhere? What version you using again? It is somewhat profane though that you assume we 'conceive of the idea that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was unacceptable to God'. it means nothing of the sort. Honestly, I have no idea from what rabbit hole you pulled this line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 First of all God does not opperate in time. His is infinite. So everything He does is eternal, even in the Human Person of Christ. Everything Christ said and every action is eternal, and can be experienced and visited through prayer. His death on the cross is eternal and we take part in that sacrifice at the most prefect prayer which is the mass. When we celebrate Mass we not only are at the foot of the cross, but we join in the eternal wedding feast here on earth. It is hard for protestants to grasp actually experiencing the real presence of Christ and entering in the actual event of the crucifixion, because they have no concept of the theology behind the Trinity and how God manifest himself out side of time. He created time, but he himself is not bound by it. Protestants don't celebrate the mystery of eternity because, the actions of the preacher who preaches for an hour or so are finite not infinite, hence he is not God. The Liturgy is the work of God therefore, in its nature it is eternal and has no beginning or end. It encompasses everything that was, is, and is to come beacuse it is God made present on earth. So it shouldn't be a surprise that we celebrate an event that happened 2000 years ago, because it was done by God who is not bound by time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulton Sheen Warrior Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 +JMJ+ [quote]If the Mass is a representation of Christs one time SUFFICIENT sacrifice on the cross, why does the priest ask if it is acceptable? Isnt this blasphemous to Christ, because how could anyone even conceive of the idea that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was unacceptable to God?[/quote] You were given two good posts and you completley ignored them. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=57710&view=findpost&p=1071305"]BROTHER ADAM'S[/url] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=57710&view=findpost&p=1071313"]RAPHAEL'S[/url] Okay. Please continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daughter of peace Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 God, make me an instrument of your peace. [quote name='Budge' post='1071348' date='Sep 22 2006, 11:08 AM'] If the Mass is a representation of Christs one time SUFFICIENT sacrifice on the cross, [u]why does the priest ask if it is acceptable[/u]? [/quote] I'm pretty sure that the priest asks that before transubstanciation occurs, so it's just bread and wine at that point. He's asking if our "raw materials" ( the bread, the wine, the belief of the congragation) are acceptable before the sacrifice becomes the one true sacrifice. I think it's just a way of being poliet and humble, like asking your mom before you go out and play...except more significant. I don't suppose a good example exsists for the humbling of the priest and congregation in the presence of God before the transubstanciation of the sacrifice. [quote name='Budge' post='1071348' date='Sep 22 2006, 11:08 AM'] Isnt this blasphemous to Christ, because how could anyone even conceive of the idea that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was unacceptable to God? Ok start with that point and work from it. [/quote] so umm, from my understanding, it isn't the Lord's sacrafice that the priest is talking about yet, but the bread and wine before the change occurs. So, no, I don't think that it's blasphemous. I hope I didn't confuse my dogma, please correct me if I got anything wrong. Was my contribution helpful in answering your questions, Budge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote name='dUSt' post='1071362' date='Sep 22 2006, 12:37 PM'] Budge, Brother Adam and Raphael have already debunked this argument in this thread, but you haven't replied to them yet. As soon as you counter their points I will respond, but until then, the potential thought of being ignored by you is just too unbearable. [/quote] What a great thread. BA and Raph's answers have made me even more sure of my Catholic faith. Thanks Budge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share Posted September 22, 2006 I know some of you may have a hard time keeping up with me... : Ok...lets go back to original topic. If the Mass is a representation of Christs one time SUFFICIENT sacrifice on the cross, [u]why does the priest ask if it is acceptable[/u]? Isnt this blasphemous to Christ, because how could anyone even conceive of the idea that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was unacceptable to God? Ok start with that point and work from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1071412' date='Sep 22 2006, 01:29 PM'] I know some of you may have a hard time keeping up with me... : Ok...lets go back to original topic. If the Mass is a representation of Christs one time SUFFICIENT sacrifice on the cross, [u]why does the priest ask if it is acceptable[/u]? [/quote] AGAIN as Raphael pointed out: he is asking that our offering of bread and wine be acceptable... Jesus' death on the cross is not our sacrifice... shesh... don't you read? Remember the word is re-presentation... not rep-resentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1071327' date='Sep 22 2006, 11:47 AM'] hehehehehe I know Ive done a good post when almost everyone starts complaining about fonts, to change the subject. Actually the print on this board is too small, I like the bigger stuff and wish more of you would use it. [/quote] Actually, it's only the particularly dull ones that I don't bother with. Christ does not die each time we perform the Sacrifice of the Mass, but we do re-present it. Jesus died once for our sins. We're not commemorating the crucifixion,we're reliving the final supper, if I'm not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1071412' date='Sep 22 2006, 02:29 PM'] I know some of you may have a hard time keeping up with me... : Ok...lets go back to original topic. If the Mass is a representation of Christs one time SUFFICIENT sacrifice on the cross, [u]why does the priest ask if it is acceptable[/u]? Isnt this blasphemous to Christ, because how could anyone even conceive of the idea that what Jesus Christ did on the cross was unacceptable to God? Ok start with that point and work from it. [/quote] how many times do yuo need to hear the same response before you actually read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote] Christ does not die each time we perform the Sacrifice of the Mass, but we do re-present it. Jesus died once for our sins. We're not commemorating the crucifixion,we're reliving the final supper, if I'm not mistaken.[/quote] If the Bible says no more sacrifices, why even call the Mass a sacrifice? [size=4] Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;[/size] I dont buy the Catholic claim of time warps to explain a sacrifice that is repeated over and over, being really the same sacrifice on the cross. Do you have any scripture to back that claim up? And where does it say scripturally that one needs a Mass to APPLY what Jesus did on the cross? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote]1 Q. Should the Holy Eucharist be considered only as a sacrament? A. The Holy Eucharist, besides being a sacrament, is also the permanent Sacrifice of the New Law, which Jesus Christ left to His Church to be offered to God by the hands of His priests. 2 Q. In what in general does a sacrifice consist? A. In general a sacrifice consists in the offering of some sensible thing to God and in some way destroying it as an acknowledgment of His Supreme Dominion over us and over all things. 3 Q. What is this Sacrifice of the New Law called? A. [b]This Sacrifice of the New Law is called the Holy Mass.[/b] 4 Q. What, then, is the Holy Mass? A.[size=7] The Holy Mass is the Sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ offered on our altars under the appearances of bread and wine, in commemoration of the Sacrifice of the Cross.[/size] 5 Q. Is the Sacrifice of the Mass the same as that of the Cross? A. [size=7]The Sacrifice of the Mass is substantially the same as that of the Cross[/size], for the same Jesus Christ, Who offered Himself on the Cross, it is Who offers Himself by the hands of the priests, His ministers, on our altars; but as regards the way in which He is offered, the Sacrifice of the Mass differs from the Sacrifice of the Cross, though retaining the most intimate and essential relation to it. 6 Q. What difference and relation then is there between the Sacrifice of the Mass and that of the Cross? A. Between the Sacrifice of the Mass and that of the Cross there is this difference and relation, that on the Cross Jesus Christ offered Himself by shedding His Blood and meriting for us; whereas on our altars He sacrifices Himself without the shedding of His Blood, and applies to us the fruits of His passion And death. 7 Q. What other relation has the Sacrifice of the Mass to that of the Cross? A. Another relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to that of the Cross is, that the Sacrifice of the Mass represents in a sensible way the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross, because, in virtue of the words of consecration, only the Body of our Saviour is made present under the species of the bread and only His Blood under the species of the wine; although by natural concomitance and by the hypostatic union, the living And real Jesus Christ is present under each of the species. 8 Q. Is not the Sacrifice of the Cross the one only Sacrifice of the New Law? A. [size=7]The Sacrifice of the Cross is the one only Sacrifice of the New Law, inasmuch as through it Our Lord satisfied Divine Justice, acquired all the merits necessary to save us, and thus, on His part, fully accomplished our redemption. These merits, however, He applies to us through the means instituted by Him in His Church, among which is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.[/size][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 22, 2006 Author Share Posted September 22, 2006 [quote]The Sacrifice of the Mass is substantially the same as that of the Cross, for the same Jesus Christ, Who offered Himself on the Cross, [u]it is Who offers Himself by the hands of the priests, His ministers, on our altars;[/u] but as regards the way in which He is offered, the Sacrifice of the Mass differs from the Sacrifice of the Cross, though retaining the most intimate and essential relation to it.[/quote] Just makes no logical sense. 100,000 masses plus a day, doesnt equate what Jesus did on the cross. Also the idea that Jesus is still offering himself...{gives the false teaching that he is STILL on the cross for all eternity. That is what the Catholic 'time warp' does after all. Keeps Jesus on the cross FOREVER... when the Bible says different. Jesus A Repeated or Re-enacted Sacrifice in A "Mass"??? Not According to the Bible's definition! [size=4] "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with the blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;[/font] and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:25-28 KJV [/size] ONCE offered to bear the sins of many... not OFFERED FOREVER. Not CONTINUALLY OFFERED. Not offered via bread on Catholic altars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 "Do this in memory of me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Budge, you're goofing with us. What about Jesus saying 'do this' at the last supper, Jesus saying the bread is His body, the Apostles doing the 'Lord's Supper' thing, and Paul saying those who take the bread without discerning Christ brings damnation upon themselves. (Speaking of damnation... beaver dam, wouldn't that have looked better with the crazy font sizes?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 [quote]"Do this in [u]memory[/u] of me."[/quote] He didnt say RE-PRESENT ME and DO MY SACRIFICE ON YOUR ALTARS. It is DONE, FINISHED. [size=4] Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,[b] It is finished:[/b] and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. [/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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