God Permits The Nuns To Be Raped

[N/A Gone]

St. Augustine's City of God, Book 1 chapter 28


28: By what judgement of God the enemy was permitted to sin against the bodies of the chaste


[quote]Let not your lives be a burden to you, then, O faithful ones of Christ, even if your chastity has been made sport of by your enemies. You have a great and true consolation if you retain an honest conscience because you id not consent to the sins of those who were permitted to sin against you. And if you should ask why they were permitted to do so: ddep indeed is the providence of the Creator and Ruler of the world, and 'unsearchable are His judgements, and His ways past finding out.'
Question your souls faithfully, however, lest perhaps you have been too puffed up by the good of maidenhood or chastity or purity, and lest you take such delight in human praise that you have indeed begrudged others this same good. I do not accuse where I do not know, nor do I hear what your hearts reply when you question them. But if their answer were to be “yes”, then do not wonder at it that you have lost yhat virginity by which you sought to please men, even while retaining that purity which cannot be shown to men. If you id not consent to those who sinned, this was because divine assistance was added to divine grace, lest grace be lost. But if human glory has now given place to human condemnation, this is only so that such glory should not be loved. In both cases, O faint-hearted ones, be consoled: you are on the one hand approved and justified, and on the other chastised and corrected.
There are, however, those whose hearts, when questioned, reply that they never were unduly proud of the good of virginity or widowhood or conjugal purity: that, 'condescending to men of low estate', they rejoiced with trembling in the gift of God, and never begrudged anyone else an equal excellence of holiness and chastity. Not caring for human praise, which is usualy bestowed more lavishly in proportion as the goodness which prompts it is rare, they have desired rather that their number should increase than that they should be eminent by reason of their scarcity. But let not such women, even if the lust of the barbarians was forced upon some of them, bewail the fact that this was permitted. Let them not believe that God is neglectful of them because, in their case, he has permitted a sin which no one normally commits with impunity. For it may be that some of the heavest loads of guilty lust are overlooked by the hidden judgement of God at present, yet reserved to a last invisible judgement. Moreover, it may be that these women, even though of good conscience because they did not allow their hearts to be swollen with pride in the vitue of chasity, none the less posess some latent infirmity which might have grown up into the arrogance of pride had they escaped this humiliation during the sack. Perhaps this, then, is why they suffered the violation of their flesh by the enemy. Just as some men were snatched away by death “lest wickedness should change their understanding,” so also it may be certain of these women were outraged lest good fortune should change their humility. In the case of both, therefore-those who took pride in the fact that their flesh had never suffered the touch of shame, and those who might have begun to take such pride had they not been violently defiled by the enemy-their chastity was not diminished, but their humility strengthened. The former retreated for a tumor that had already grown; the latter were warned of a tumor about to grow.
But we should not omit to mention that some of those who suffered that continence is a bodily good like any other, and therefore that it endures only for as long as the body is not subject to anyone else's lustful handling. The truth, however, is that sanctity of body and spirit alike depend soley upon the strength of a will assisted by a devine aid, and that conteneance is therefore a good which cannot be taken away for as long as the mind does not consent. Perhaps, then, we have now relieved them of their error. Let them therefore reflect that they have served god with a good conscience. Let them remember that he will in no way forsake those who serve and call upon him. And let them not forget how greatly chastity pleases him. Then, they will realize that he would never have allowed these misfourtunes to befall his saints if that holiness which he has given to them, and which he loves to see in them, could thereby in any degree perish. [/quote]


So, is St. Augustine saying that God caused the Nuns to be raped in order to teach them humility? I pray I am reading this wrong. Otherwise I might need a new hero..

[Guest Perpetualove]

In reading this, I believe that our dear Saint is speaking to those that have undergone such a tragedy and horror, and is telling them that this experience can bring them closer to God and can use their suffering as a means of purification. Of course, it's not said in this manner, but that's what I got. In thinking about his culture at the time when he was alive, we must think about how women were viewed - especially women who had been violated. Just my opinion.

[puellapaschalis]

I do not see a link between what you quoted and "God wants the nuns to be raped". There's a clear difference between what He will ands permits, and this passage is all about permitting.

God's [i]reasons[/i] for permitting are, I believe, notoriously difficult to figure out if He hasn't sent an explanatory email. Here, I think - or perhaps I'm simply reading Augustine wrong - the saint is talking about how in the midst of such unhappiness (rape), good (an increase in humility) can yet come of it. I think that's a distinct thing from saying that the good was the reason for the unhappiness being permitted - that almost rings of the end justifying the means, and I believe that on the appropriate scale, that maxim also applies to God vanwege His benevolence.

Having said all that, I'm not a big fan of Augustine. Whilst I know little about Pelagianism itself, the Brit in me sympathises with a guy who fell foul of Augustine's theology.

Love and prayers,

PP

[jswranch]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1067945' date='Sep 20 2006, 03:47 AM']
Having said all that, I'm not a big fan of Augustine. Whilst I know little about Pelagianism itself, the Brit in me sympathises with a guy who fell foul of Augustine's theology.
[/quote]
While not a church historian, I am under the impression Pelagius fell a foul of the church's theology, not Augustine's. Augustine was more of the posse sent to round up.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1067959' date='Sep 20 2006, 02:57 PM']
While not a church historian, I am under the impression Pelagius fell a foul of the church's theology, not Augustine's. Augustine was more of the posse sent to round up.
[/quote]

Ah, ok. I stand corrected. Thanks.

Love and prayers,

PP

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1067795' date='Sep 20 2006, 03:57 AM']
In reading this, I believe that our dear Saint is speaking to those that have undergone such a tragedy and horror, and is telling them that this experience can bring them closer to God and can use their suffering as a means of purification. Of course, it's not said in this manner, but that's what I got. In thinking about his culture at the time when he was alive, we must think about how women were viewed - especially women who had been violated. Just my opinion.
[/quote]


Yeah, I agree.....or in other words...'what she said!'

[hermit]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1067692' date='Sep 20 2006, 12:53 AM']
St. Augustine's City of God, Book 1 chapter 28
28: By what judgement of God the enemy was permitted to sin against the bodies of the chaste

So, is St. Augustine saying that God caused the Nuns to be raped in order to teach them humility? I pray I am reading this wrong. Otherwise I might need a new hero..
[/quote]

I'm sorry my eyes are bad, and I dont read computer pages to good and the dissertation was long, and I did scan it breifly.... But by your final paragraph, I will say this, God would never (cause) such an evil but he may (allow) it here on earth where man and satan are basically allowed to do as they please.... I have to believe and this is just my opinion, that God often allows us mere mortals to commit great evils so that a greater good may be brought of them, but he is never the cause of them, man in his imperfect state is.....

When I find my glasses I will come back and read this in full and repost(seriously)I'm on my lunch break right now and just giving a fast answer..... This is an interesting topic worthy of re reading

God Bless and Mary Keep
hermit......

[N/A Gone]

No, he probably meant what he said. Be careful about making him fit your own conception--despite the fact he was a saint, he can be wrong. But as I said, remember that the "rape of the sabine women" was a popular story for the Romans, and you have to read Augustine's comments here in light of Roman literature on that subject. He was writing for the fourth century, not for us.

[LouisvilleFan]

Judging from the last sentence quoted...

[i]Then, they will realize that he would never have allowed these misfourtunes to befall his saints if that holiness which he has given to them, and which he loves to see in them, could thereby in any degree perish. [/i]

...I get the impression that St. Augustine was writing to women who were not so much worried about the fact that they had been raped, but the possibility that they had broken their vow of chastity and lost some degree of holiness or grace. He offers a few reasons why this might have happened to them, but he can only speculate about reasons. Well, the bottom line reason is that we live in an evil and dangerous world. That's why Christ was sent to redeem us. However, I think Augustine's primary purpose is to reassure them that even though they are no longer physically virgin, their hearts remain pure because they did not consent, which means their vow was not broken. Chastity is a gift from God and it is something he would never take away.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1074881' date='Sep 25 2006, 06:29 PM']
No, he probably meant what he said. Be careful about making him fit your own conception--despite the fact he was a saint, he can be wrong.
[/quote]

No, Augustine [i]was[/i] a sinner and [i]now[/i] he's a saint

Of course, I know what you meant, but it's always good to remember that the path to sainthood is rarely a straight line to holiness.