Islam As Pagan Monotheism

[Didacus]

Cathoholic Anonymous,

Just got to your post, and will readyour link.

Your views, unfortunately, rarely reach my side of the world. I will read attentively your link and then post my comments and replies; don't go too far and thanks for posting.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1066701' date='Sep 19 2006, 02:28 PM']
I'm pretty sure Mohammad was never a Christian. He can't be a heretic, by definition.
[/quote]
technically you are correct. I used the term more to say "he accepted parts of Catholicism and rejected others".. that he was a "heretic" insomuch as he took truth and mixed it with lies to create a seperate "option"

I guess the words 'theologically and religiously' would throw you far away from that interpretation of my words, but I said that merely to differentiate between where one would begin a theological discussion (the similarities in our theology...)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1066734' date='Sep 19 2006, 03:16 PM']
technically you are correct. I used the term more to say "he accepted parts of Catholicism and rejected others".. that he was a "heretic" insomuch as he took truth and mixed it with lies to create a seperate "option"

I guess the words 'theologically and religiously' would throw you far away from that interpretation of my words, but I said that merely to differentiate between where one would begin a theological discussion (the similarities in our theology...)
[/quote]
Of course. Franciscan just does a lot of terminological reprogramming of its catechetics students. You wouldn't believe the silly way some people say things when they come here.

[thessalonian]

Whenever this question comes up I think of Corenlius. He was monotheist but I am quite sure he didn't have a trinitarian view and he did not know Jesus was God, though it seems he might have heard of him if you look in Acts 10. Yet he was said to be "a righteous and God-fearing man" and the God of heaven and earth heard his prayer. He was in ignorance yet God had implanted the desire to know the one true God in his heard and to search for him.

Acts 17
26] And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,
[27] that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us,
[28] for `In him we live and move and have our being';
as even some of your poets have said, `For we are indeed his offspring.'

Are their moslems who have a heart like cornelius even if they don't have all the rigth theology? I believe their is.

Blessings

[Aloysius]

I am not saying there are not... but if you read my posts I am not arguing anything about their non-trinitarian view, but their monotheism in general. I believe the God of the Jews is also assosiated with Reason itself, but that the God of Islam may still be tainted with too much pagan-personality which keeps Him from being absolutely transcendent.

though I think there may be many trains of theology in islam, as shown to me by Cathoholic, that do attempt to come to the same view of a God who is no longer merely personality (though I am not sure I see them going far enough to truly overcome the old way of viewing gods)... I think overall Mohammad's monotheistic revolution was nothing more than reducing the gods in number to one but not actually inverting the way they think about god like the Jewish and thus Christian (maybe especially Christian, with the revelation of the Gospel of St. John that the logos is God) monotheistic revolution

it is not about them not having a trinitarian view, for neither do the jews, it is about a pre-monotheistic-revolution view of a 'god', though they may have made him one in number they didn't acheive it like the Jewish and Christian religions did.

for even the modern Hindu religion seems to have reached a sort of monotheism, in which all their gods are merely manifestations of the one god; but their monotheism does not transcend and invert in a true monotheistic revolution... their krishna is still driven by the personality of krishna, their vishnu is still driven by the personality of vishnu

and the moslem's allah is still driven by the personality of allah... or so goes my thesis.

of our God, the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition, our God's personality is driven by reason which causes us to look at God in a wholly revolutionary way.

[mortify]

Peace,

When I think pagan god I think zeus or odin and they're very different from the concept of God in islam. Other than denying the Trinity, and focusing on God's omnipotence, there isn't that much difference, particularly with the Old Testament (Perhaps others will disagree?).

Where we do find paganism is in some islamic practices, like circulating around the Ka'ba and venerating the black stone. These were being done way before muhammad's time. So I'd say islam is a mixture of various religious beliefs existing in the arabian peninsula and those Muhammad encountered on his travels, such as Christianity. It's really hard to label it "paganism" because of the mixture.

[Aloysius]

the basis of a pagan god is that he acts according to his personality. zeus and odin fit this category, and my contention is that allah fits this category as well.

the basis of revolutionary monotheism is that it inverts this concept and makes God's nature into reason; He does not merely act out of his personality

even the God of the Old Testament, and the God of the Talmudic Jews, is indicated (minus a few exceptions of anthropomorphisms, as I have noted, but in Christianity/Judaism they can be called anthropomorphisms, in Islam every word is directly authored by God and thus they do not generally present an argument for that) to act as the basis of existence (YHWH), to act according to reason that is not determined by his personality or temperments (I give my example in Genesis, that God saw that it was good not that He said that it was good)

allah reduces pagan gods to one, but maintains a god who rules according to his personality and temperments.

[Budge]

[quote] Islam As Pagan Monotheism, but not moon-god fundy nonsense[/quote]

The title of this thread is contradictory.

Pagan equals MOON-GOD.

Paganism encompasses nature worship and worshipping the CREATION instead of the CREATOR.

Why do you think THIS is on Islamic flags?

[img]http://www.travel-images.com/turkey.gif[/img]

Right there is the moon.

So where's the FUNDY nonsense...

that us bad Bible thumping FUNDIES refuse to get on the Allah is God interfaith bandwagon?

What is odd is on this board right here, we have Catholics joining the Karen Armstrong train of thought...and others who reject Allah as God...interesting how that suppose Catholic Unity breaks down a little bit on this one.

[Aloysius]

Read my thread, please. I put a bit of effort into explaining a very rational argument about why allah is a pagan god, just numbered one to mimic monotheism.

But I say specifically in explaining this that I will not base it solely off of the attempt to label allah the same as the old moon god. Why? well, it's right there in one of my posts on the first page: israEL itself is named after the pagan god of the caanites, EL. I label it "moon god fundy nonsense" because generally, fundy's just take all the similarities to the moon god (its name, the symbol of the moon, et cetera) and think they have proven their point.

if you had read some of my further posts, you would note that I myself gave credence to the idea that it is a continuation of the moon god, and all the other pagan arab gods, wrapped into one.

[Budge]

[quote] israEL itself is named after the pagan god of the caanites, EL.[/quote]

You are arguing semantics. El is basically a generic name for God in the semantic language.

Even I know that Allah is used in the Arabic language for God by Christians...

{this is why I always write Allah [of Islam]

[quote]
"...When the Israelites came to worship their god under the name of Yahweh...the term El as a name for 'god' survived only in the old narrative about the patriarchs and in some literary forms, such as the Psalms. In much the same way, the obsolete 'thee' and 'thou' survive in modern liturgical usage and in poetry, although the words long ago dropped out of spoken English."
- The Israelites[/quote]

[mortify]

Allah is not a moon god. As much as I may disagree with muslims, it is nonsense to think they worship the moon. Its very clear that they believe Allah created everything, including the moon.

*Maybe* the pagan arabs believed Allah was a moon god, but this is not the case with Muslims.

[Budge]

Islam still has "moon" worship to a degree...but this time

its a much smaller 'SPACE ROCK"

[img]http://www.coranix.com/101/kaaba_pierre_noire.jpg[/img]

[quote]The Black Stone (called Al-Hajarul Aswad in Arabic) is a holy relic in Islam. It is roughly 50 cm in diameter. It is found in the Kaaba, a sacred site in Islam, in the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It is the cornerstone of one of the four corners of the religious construction. It can be recognized instantly because it is surrounded by a silver band.
[size=4]
When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone.[/size]

The Stone is actually broken into several pieces, damage which occurred when the stone was stolen in 930 C.E. Ismaili (Qarmatian) warriors sacked Mecca and carried the Black Stone away. It was returned twenty-two years later. In the process, the Black Stone was cracked. It is now held together by a silver band, which is fastened by silver nails to the Stone.[/quote]

[Aloysius]

I am only arguing symantics about where we should begin argument... which is what semantics are for. I'm not going to say I can prove my point by showing the symbols of the moon god and the similarities of the name allah with the name of the moon god and all those things which, in my experience, many fundies start out with (and finish with) thinking they have proven their point.

EDIT (AFTER BUDGE's POST) TO ADD: yes, budge, this example you highlight shows where they remain pagan-minded about gods. If that was the sum of the argument, however, I would label it "fundy moon god nonsense"... I do truly invite you to read the first page of this thread because I do want to see what your opinion is of my propositions.

mortify, allah is not directly the moon god, but he is a continuation of the moon god and all the other pagan arab gods, simply numbered into one. antrhopologically, they took the first step of a basic monotheistic revolution (bringing the gods down in number to one), but did not complete it with the truly revolutionary aspect of the monotheistic revolution... they maintained a god whose personality and temperments ruled and thus continued to treat him the way pagans treated all the gods.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Why do you think THIS is on Islamic flags?[/quote]

It is the new moon. Muslims [i]always[/i] use the new moon, as I'm sure you've noticed - never the full moon. This is because the new moon is a symbol of renewal and regeneration, something that never dies. Muslims see Muhammad as the person who revived the old faith (pure monotheism) that was still practised by the hanifs [hermits] in the desert even in pagan Arabia. That was why the new moon was chosen as the symbol for Islam.

Because pictures [i]can[/i] be symbolic, Budge. It is crude logic to suppose that they're always iconic, or even indexical.

[Budge]

I wonder how many here are going to be attending mosque soon.

I suppose you could include it with your Catholic Mass, theres plenty being opening in America.

The moon in Islam doesnt represent your fanciful statement but fulfills this Bible verse.
[size=5]
Deu 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or[size=4] moon[/size], or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;[/size]

That includes worshipping meterorites that fall from the sky.