What I Meant

[aquamarine]

What everyone seems to have overlooked here is, that no matter what you believe or don't believe, no matter what denomination of what religion you are, believing in something merely as an insurance policy negates any meaning or truth in what you \say you believe.

The ONLY way anyone is "saved" (a word I hate in relation to all this because there is an implied threat in it, but it does seem to be the one that everyone "gets") is by coming to God FREELY, WILLINGLY, and WITH THEIR ENTIRE BEING.

Sorta kinda saying you'll believe in God because He might exist and it's safer to believe it than not means absolutely nothing to anyone.

Encouraging people to believe in God "just in case" is coersion, and I"m pretty sure God doesn't expect people to go around strong-arming other people into believing in Him.

You can put the word out, you can live lives of example, you can answer questions honestly, but you cannot threaten, bargain, or coerce in order to rope people into your faith, nor can you pretend to believe in God even though you really don't just to cover your butt.

[Sojourner]

I totally agree with you, aquamarine -- I've never liked the idea of believing in God simply because it increases the odds that I won’t go to hell. A better alternative, I think, is appealing to the undeniable testimony of all creation on this matter. To paraphrase Paul in Romans, God’s attributes of power and divinity are visible in creation, so clearly that we humans are left with no excuse. (My atheist co-worker even sees evidence of God in creation, although he doesn’t call it that; the other day, he was marveling over the complexities of his ear.)

If you’re serious in your statements, Ryan, I am guessing the question you are truly wrestling with is not whether God exists, because if you’re honest with yourself and your world, his existence is inescapably true. Rather, the question lies somewhere in “facing the facts” that things aren’t quite as they should be. I am a newspaper reporter, and in the course of my work I’ve seen and read things so horrible that I rarely talk about them. One of the first trials I covered was a murder; a couple was accused of killing the husband’s 3-year-old daughter after a week of what can only be described as torture. Things are not as they should be. People do horrible, awful things to each other.

You’d better believe that my ideas of God were pretty seriously challenged during and after that trial, and by other things I have seen and experienced since. I still wrestle with understanding these things, but there are no short, easy answers to explain this evil. Greater minds than mine have wrestled with this question and others like it over millennia. One of my favorite writers, Annie Dillard, (a convert to Catholicism, by the way) says, “Who are we to demand explanations of God? (And what monsters of perfection should we be if we did not?)”

I wish I could change so many things: so many wrongs that I have done, or have been done to me, or done to people I love. But I am powerless to do so. So instead, I come to my Father and am slowly, achingly slowly, learning to trust that He Is.

Edited January 10, 2004 by Sojourner

[socalscout]

What i meant in the other thread is that the idea of a God is extremely stupid and is just the inability of man to face the fact that we're alone in the universe not created or controlled by a "God".

It is extremely cowardly to believe in a "God" because you can't face the facts. And instead of changing things just saying "If God wills it, blablabla...."

That's all

You're welcome to argue, sooner or later you'll come to the same conclusion.

Blaise Pascal, the Father of modern mathematics, wrote about the "Wager" of God's existance. He Wrote:

If I wager for and God is -- infinite gain;

If I wager for and God is not -- no loss.

If I wager against and God is -- infinite loss;

If I wager against and God is not -- neither loss nor gain.

I uses him as an example of the scientific who wrote on the existance of God only, not as an example of Church doctrine. Bruce's post refers to this, intentional or not.

BlAZEr I just read your reply after I wrote this, sorry for restating what you have already said.

Edited January 10, 2004 by socalscout

[Anna]

Omgosh..........*puts hand to forehead* I feel faint, dizzy, whoozy....I agree with Bruce! *swoons and falls to the floor, out cold.*

Blank: Welcome to PhatMass! Have you introduced yourself on the Check In thread in the Open Mic section? ((((hugs))))

Pax Christi. <><

[Ryan]

Most wars have been started because of religion. People have been and still are being killed because of religion (Your church being # 1 at killing other people, i may add).

September 11th was because of religion.

And now tell me your God wanted this.

Both sides claim God at their side.

Come on, you can't seriously believe some guy up there is stupid enough to do this.

[Ryan]

Most wars have been started because of religion. People have been and still are being killed because of religion (Your church being # 1 at killing other people, i may add).

September 11th was because of religion.

And now tell me your God wanted this.

Both sides claim God at their side.

Come on, you can't seriously believe some guy up there is stupid enough to do this.

[Ellenita]

Most religious wars are about politics, land and money and not about faith or belief in God.

September 11th was about hate, not religion.

[Ellenita]

Ryan, I responded to this in your 'what I meant' thread! Do you want to move the debate over to this thread now?

[Mateo el Feo]

In that case, atheism must be the most dangerous religion of them all. We endured half a century waiting for the Communists to destroy the world with their nuclear weapons. Luckily they mostly just destroyed their own economies.

With their "enlightened" revolutions (Russia, China, Mexico, etc), non-atheists were killed by atheists in the millions...

You're starting your thread with a false premise or two. Just a bit of advice: study history. It'll surpise someone with your prejudices.

God bless you,

Mateo

[foundsheep]

I merged these topics. New one was continuation of other.

[mulls]

Most wars have been started because of religion. People have been and still are being killed because of religion (Your church being # 1 at killing other people, i may add).

September 11th was because of religion.

And now tell me your God wanted this.

Both sides claim God at their side.

Come on, you can't seriously believe some guy up there is stupid enough to do this.

(i said this in the other thread but i'll repeat it)

you're right, there is no guy up there stupid enough to do this.

the guy up there is wondering how we (people) could be stupid enough to do this.

[Aloysius]

you know why the idea that Religion is the easy way of escaping some reality? here's why (at least for Catholocism)

Life with Catholocism is hard, while death is easier but still hard as we don't know whether we'll be condemned for eternity, have to go through the pains of purification for a very long time, or make it to heaven. actually, come to think about it, death isn't that much easier.

Life with Athiesm is easy, you can do whatever the heck you want. Death with Athiesm can be hard since you think you're just gonna no longer exist, but it's not nearly as hard as death with Catholocism, in that you believe you may not just cease to exist but be eternally punished.

Catholocism, however, has something very important that you confuse with making it seem easy. HOPE. We hope in our eternal salvation, and that's what scares you. you're sure of your eventual nothingness while we hope in eternal happiness. we are not assured, however, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. the reason it appears easier is that we have hope in Christ.

:rolling:

[Paladin D]

My post is gone.

[foundsheep]

which one?

[Aloysius]

u know what, Ryan, how is our Church #1 in killing ppl, cuz it definitely isn't. the secular athiestic religion has killed more, abortion, communism, holocaust.

:(